# Pre-Emptive Pitting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592 "2005-12-08T00:39:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/161 "2005-12-10T03:16:09Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Not automatically. They killed somebody. The burden is on them to prove it was justified. If they can’t prove it was justified then what am I supposed to think? > > Would you be willing to take them at their word, and their word alone that the guy said the b-word? An innocent man is dead. He can’t be brought back. You tell his family that he died for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/162 "2005-12-10T03:17:56Z")
I was responding to the quote in your post. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/163 "2005-12-10T03:20:16Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > The marshal never said that, their spokesweenie said that. Same difference. He speaks for the air marshals. I find it hard to believe he would fabricate such an allegation out of thin air. I would also suggest that we need to be consistent in how much weight we decide to give second hand sources. If we’re going to dismiss Adams then we need to dismiss the guy who says the Captain “supports” the marshals. Thanks for the spelling correction, by the way. I take some small consolation in knowing I wasn’t the only one fucking it up. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/164 "2005-12-10T03:21:01Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > An innocent man is dead. He can’t be brought back. You tell his family that he died for nothing. If he said the word Bomb, I still have no problem with the shooting. I am not sure he said the word bomb, so I await more information. The initial reports, as usual were misinformed and have skewed the entire incident. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/165 "2005-12-10T03:21:29Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > An innocent man is dead. He can’t be brought back. You tell his family that he died for nothing. Only if it’s true…and only if they ask. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/166 "2005-12-10T03:23:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Same difference. He speaks for the air marshals. I find it hard to believe he would fabricate such an allegation out of thin air. > > I would also suggest that we need to be consistent in how much weight we decide to give second hand sources. If we’re going to dismiss Adams then we need to dismiss the guy who says the Captain “supports” the marshals. > > Thanks for the spelling correction, by the way. I take some small consolation in knowing I wasn’t the only one fucking it up. You are 100% correct. If fact ultimately that’s my point. The shooting seems to have occurred outside the direct observation of anyone the press has spoken to. Therefore we know very little of Mr. Alpizar last minute or two. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/167 "2005-12-10T03:23:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Only if it’s true…and only if they ask. Posted before I read **Lonesome’s** explanation. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/168 "2005-12-10T03:28:23Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > If he said the word Bomb, I still have no problem with the shooting. I am not sure he said the word bomb, so I await more information. The initial reports, as usual were misinformed and have skewed the entire incident. If there is found to be some convincing corroboration of a bomb threat (I would accept the word of the Captain if he claims to be sure that he specifically heard a bomb threat outside the hearing of the passengers) then I would not be willing to convict the marshals of anything except maybe some quicker judgement tham I would have had. I might think they should have been more patient, but that’s not something I’d be willing to ruin their lives over. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/169 "2005-12-10T03:33:44Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If there is found to be some convincing corroboration of a bomb threat (I would accept the word of the Captain if he claims to be sure that he specifically heard a bomb threat outside the hearing of the passengers) then I would not be willing to convict the marshals of anything except maybe some quicker judgement tham I would have had. I might think they should have been more patient, but that’s not something I’d be willing to ruin their lives over. Very fair statement. There is a minor update to the story and a new spokeman. first this: > [@](#): > > McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker who was returning home from a fishing trip in Key West, said he was sitting in Seat 21C when he noticed a commotion a few rows back. > > “I heard him saying to his wife, ‘I’ve got to get off the plane,’” McAlhany said. “He bumped me, bumped a couple of stewardesses. He just wanted to get off the plane.” > > Alpizar ran up the aisle into the first-class cabin, where marshals chased him onto the jetway, McAlhany said. > > McAlhany said he “absolutely never heard the word ‘bomb’ at all.” > > “The first time I heard the word ‘bomb’ was when I was interviewed by the FBI,” McAlhany said. “They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I said, ‘What is the B-word?’ And they were like, ‘Bomb.’ I said no. They said, ‘Are you sure?’ And I am.” Then from John Amat, national operations vice president of the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association > [@](#): > > “The person was screaming, saying he would blow up the plane, reaching into his bag - they had to react,” Amat said. > > “The bottom line is, we’re trained to shoot to stop the threat,” said Amat, who is also a deputy with the U.S. Marshals Service in Miami. “Hollywood has this perception that we are such marksmen we can shoot an arm or leg with accuracy. We can’t. These guys were in a very tense situation. In their minds they had to believe this person was an imminent threat to themselves or the people on the plane.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/170 "2005-12-10T03:38:53Z")
New update: "Press releases statement admitting they have sensationalize and misreported on the incident from the very start. " No not really, they would never say this. But isn’t it basically true. Jim ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/171 "2005-12-10T03:56:26Z")
Well one things for sure. This policy the AMs have which forbids them to speak to the press is probably a very good idea. One which John Amat should have heeded, because he’s really fucked things up with his big mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/172 "2005-12-10T04:01:21Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > New update: > "Press releases statement admitting they have sensationalize and misreported on the incident from the very start. " > > No not really, they would never say this. But isn’t it basically true. > > Jim [SARCASM ON]Well, that _is_ their job after all, right?[/SARCASM OFF] ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/173 "2005-12-10T06:17:17Z")
Due to information that was just brought to my attention, I must admit I was _wrong_ on _every_ posting I made so far in this thread. Yes it is correctly spelled “Air Marshal” and does _not_ have 2 “l’s”. :smack: I thank jrfranchi and Diogenes for mentioning the spelling correction. Didn’t mean to be so frivolous in such a serious topic but I think the Board needed a little change of pace about now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/174 "2005-12-10T06:40:12Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > New update: > "Press releases statement admitting they have sensationalize and misreported on the incident from the very start. " > > No not really, they would never say this. But isn’t it basically true. Please tell me one thing about this incident that has been misreported. Somehow I get the impression that you think your quotes from Amat support that accusation - is that so? He used the words “blow up the plane” instead of “bomb,” which is interesting. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/175 "2005-12-10T14:47:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Please tell me one thing about this incident that has been misreported. Somehow I get the impression that you think your quotes from Amat support that accusation - is that so? He used the words “blow up the plane” instead of “bomb,” which is interesting. Actually that post was just a silly joke I actually regret posting. It didn’t add anything useful to the debate. \*\* wolf\_meister\*\*: You are welcomed, I use spell check for many of my posts and I spell Marshal wrong at least a dozen times yesterday. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/176 "2005-12-10T15:00:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And you’re really saying that the air marshals shot him because they were considering this possibility? I have no way of knowing if they did or not. I was just poking a hole in **Dio** ’s argument. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/177 "2005-12-10T15:14:32Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Wait a minute, is this a hypothetical. or did you hear something new? No new information. I was just making an observation that it would not be necessary for him to have the bomb in his bag, as **Diogenes** was saying. Further, I imagine that it would not be impossible to get a trigger past screeners by making it look like something else. If they thought he might have a bomb, they couldn’t let him reach in his bag. They wouldn’t have to see a thing before dozens of people would be dead. I agree that it is of concern that drastically different versions of the story have come out, and that so few people have heard him say anything about having a bomb. I can imagine a scenario where someone says to another, “Did he say he has a bomb?” and it all unravels from there. I’m going to extend them a good deal of credibility, and I’ll note that the guy could have done any number of things differently to avoid being shot, but I also recognize that some people are probably not right for such a job as this. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/178 "2005-12-23T15:15:39Z")
15 days have passed and there is no new news on the ‘Air Marshals’ or ‘Rigoberto Alpizar’. I wonder if we’ll ever hear what happened or how the investigation is going. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/179 "2005-12-23T19:58:23Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Not automatically. They killed somebody. The burden is on them to prove it was justified. If they can’t prove it was justified then what am I supposed to think? > > Would you be willing to take them at their word, and their word alone that the guy said the b-word? No, the burden is on whoever is investigating to prove that the Air Marshals didn’t act in accordance with procedure, or that they were NOT justified in the shooting. The burden of proof isn’t typically on the law enforcement officer in internal hearings like this. Obviously we aren’t talking about a “reasonable doubt” situation, but it has to be demonstrated that either the Air Marshals were not justified or that they didn’t follow procedure for them to be admonished. That’s how these things work. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/180 "2005-12-23T23:44:15Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > 15 days have passed and there is no new news on the ‘Air Marshals’ or ‘Rigoberto Alpizar’. > > I wonder if we’ll ever hear what happened or how the investigation is going. > > Jim Interesting, isn’t it? 200 some traumatized passengers held at gun point and ordered not to look up, the Alpizar family who must be pretty upset, yet not one of these people has felt the need to discuss what happened to a member of the press. Or, the press for some reason feels this just isn’t a newsworthy story deserving of a follow-up. Since when has our media gotten so responsible they won’t discuss a story until the results of an “official investigation” are (never going to be) complete? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592.md?page=8)