# Precedent for sending people to church in American law? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 20, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612 "2012-11-20T13:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bpelta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Bpelta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bpelta)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/1 "2012-11-20T13:58:01Z")
There’s a story in the news that teenager Tyler Alred, convicted of manslaughter, has been [sentenced](http://www.google.com/#q=tyler+alred&hl=en&tbo=u&source=univ&tbm=nws&sa=X&ei=nIurUILrBoSB0AGVqYDABg&ved=0CCsQqAI&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=f1b33237d172175f&bpcl=38625945&biw=1517&bih=741) by a judge to attend church. I was wondering if sentencing people to church attendance has precedent in the past, and how far back such sentences might go in American history. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/2 "2012-11-20T14:01:04Z")
That judge does realise that ANY church is just a building and isn’t _really_ inhabited by the Holy Spirit, doesn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/3 "2012-11-20T14:02:07Z")
I wonder if this avoids legal issues because Alred’s lawyers agreed to it. I know I’d want my lawyers to agree to something like this if it allowed to me stay free. At least free except Sunday morning. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/4 "2012-11-20T14:03:22Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > That judge does realise that ANY church is just a building and isn’t _really_ inhabited by the Holy Spirit, doesn’t he? Unlikely, the majority of Americans do believe in stuff like Holy Spirits, etc. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/5 "2012-11-20T14:04:01Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > That judge does realise that ANY church is just a building and isn’t _really_ inhabited by the Holy Spirit, doesn’t he? for a small fee ..ahem sorry.. tithe.. the church of drachillix is always seeking new converts. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/6 "2012-11-20T14:10:16Z")
WTF is it with people linking to Google results rather than the actual thing! :mad: This ought to be made a bannable offense. WRT the story, surely this must be unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/7 "2012-11-20T14:16:13Z")
I am not sure you can really force belief. Being an atheist I very much doubt being sentenced to attend church would have any effect on me. Of course given the choice between prison or having to attend church I would pick church any day. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/8 "2012-11-20T14:34:00Z")
I wonder what the nitty gritty rules on this are. Is he required to attend one specific congregation or a congregation of one specific tradition, or is he allowed to switch to a different denomination or even a different religion (e.g. attend an Islamic mosque every week instead)? Coerced religious attendance has a very bad reputation in the US. The Virginia constitution specifically forbids it. [QUOTE=Constitution of Virginia] …No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and the same shall in nowise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. And the General Assembly shall not prescribe any religious test whatever, or confer any peculiar privileges or advantages on any sect or denomination, or pass any law requiring or authorizing any religious society, or the people of any district within this Commonwealth, to levy on themselves or others, any tax for the erection or repair of any house of public worship, or for the support of any church or ministry; but it shall be left free to every person to select his religious instructor, and to make for his support such private contract as he shall please. [/QUOTE] Interestingly enough, a neo-pagan group, [the Reformed Druids of North America](http://rdna.info) was founded at a private college because the school required students to attend a certain number of religious services, but didn’t specify what religion it had to be. A bunch of students got together and decided to form their own religion! The college administration was clearly irked. To pass them on the requirement went against their intent that the students should be influenced by a mainstream path where they would be under a “good influence” (not a bunch of college students getting drunk in a stone circle), and failing them would mean essentially that they are intolerant of religious diversity. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/9 "2012-11-20T14:53:16Z")
I’m not sure such sentence alternatives, which can be declined by the felon, are necessarily unconstitutional. After all, he could have declined that offering and spent more time incarcerated, in a secular setting. Me, I’d jump for it and make sure to get to my local Unitarian-Universalist congregation a lot more regularly. Lots of atheists in our congregation. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/10 "2012-11-20T15:28:35Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/11 "2012-11-20T15:30:06Z")
Well I am not a registered atheist 😃 I am C of E and I don’t believe I ever had my membership revoked. Edit: and my reply makes no sense now. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/12 "2012-11-20T17:42:26Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I’m not sure such sentence alternatives, which can be declined by the felon, are necessarily unconstitutional. After all, he could have declined that offering and spent more time incarcerated, in a secular setting. > > Me, I’d jump for it and make sure to get to my local Unitarian-Universalist congregation a lot more regularly. Lots of atheists in our congregation. Jail or church? I am as card carrying atheist as they come, and I would take church over jail in a heartbeat. Then promptly appeal my sentence. I think the founding fathers would collectively weep at even the hint of an idea that 200+ years later someone was pondering freedom _or_ religion. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/13 "2012-11-20T17:44:00Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Unlikely, the majority of Americans do believe in stuff like Holy Spirits, etc. But many of those do not believe that the Holy Spirit resides in specific marked spaces. Or at least they’re not supposed to by their Church’s teachings. And yes, I realize that they’re also supposed to believe other things they don’t believe, but I still wanted to point it out. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/14 "2012-11-20T20:14:03Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Jail or church? I am as card carrying atheist as they come, and I would take church over jail in a heartbeat. > > Then promptly appeal my sentence. > > I think the founding fathers would collectively weep at even the hint of an idea that 200+ years later someone was pondering freedom _or_ religion. It is a dumb sentence. Only the convicted party has standing to challenge its constitutionality (and who knows if he will). But the risk of such potential challenges (along with the extra costs to the government and delays of any such appeal) associated with this sentence is so patent that one must question the judge’s, well, judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/15 "2012-11-20T20:38:05Z")
Let’s say you (as in the teenager Tyler Alred) agree to a sentence such as this. Can you then challenge its constitutionality (as suggested by **drachillix** ), or are you bound by the agreement? And if the challenge is allowed and is successful, are you then off the hook, or are you then subject to the original penalty of prison or jail? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/16 "2012-11-20T20:42:50Z")
[Past discussion on the subject](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=625937) – and, an attempted, at least, precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/17 "2012-11-20T23:35:06Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Me, I’d jump for it and make sure to get to my local Unitarian-Universalist congregation a lot more regularly. Lots of atheists in our congregation. I expect that if you chose that the judge would decide it didn’t count and just toss you in prison to make an example of you. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/18 "2012-11-21T01:21:18Z")
Both families agreed to it. The other family being the one with the dead son. The case involved vehicular manslaughter. The judge acknowledged the sentence was probably unconstitutional. An ACLU spokesman mentioned that they would look into a challenge but the issue was one of standing since the parties agreed. He felt that it was also improper for the judge to go against his sworn duty to uphold the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/19 "2012-11-21T05:07:33Z")
_shrugs_ If both sides agreed to it, meh. I gotta give props to the dead son’s family – I’d be wanting his head on a spike. At any rate it certainly won’t hurt him. Saves the state a pretty penny, too. Interestingly back in my paralegal days I saw several defense attorneys tell their (recently-charged-but-yet-to-go-to-trial) clients to get their ass in church on Sundays to help bulk up their “I made a mistake and I’m trying to live right now” defense in court. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612/20 "2012-11-21T06:23:18Z")
> [@glaeken](#): > > I am not sure you can really force belief. Being an atheist I very much doubt being sentenced to attend church would have any effect on me. Of course given the choice between prison or having to attend church I would pick church any day. But you ought not EVER to be compelled to attend a church of the court’s choice, or any other church, for that matter. That is just completely bad in many ways. ☹ Also, I thought there was this good separation of church and state thing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/precedent-for-sending-people-to-church-in-american-law/641612.md?page=2)