# Predestination vs. Free Will

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predestination-vs-free-will/605109>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [December 5, 2011, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predestination-vs-free-will/605109 "2011-12-05T06:18:13Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 6\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![pragmatic55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@pragmatic55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pragmatic55)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predestination-vs-free-will/605109/41 "2011-12-10T10:41:45Z")

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aaa

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**Author:** ![GrandpaDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a5b964/32.png) [@GrandpaDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandpaDave)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predestination-vs-free-will/605109/42 "2011-12-15T09:49:33Z")

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You seem to be assuming that the “first cause” is only that. God on the other hand is involved along the way.

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**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predestination-vs-free-will/605109/43 "2011-12-15T15:09:32Z")

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> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#):
>
> While this is right, in principle, quantum mechanics is nevertheless perfectly compatible with a deterministic universe. Only interpretations that include some sort of wave-function collapse introduce indeterminism; those in which it doesn’t happen (like many worlds, or relative states, etc.), or those in which it is merely apparent (decoherence) have as their only process unitary Schrödinger-evolution, which is reversible, and hence, deterministic.

Potentially, but not necessarily. And then there’s the many-worlds model, which suggests that we all take all possible actions.

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**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predestination-vs-free-will/605109/44 "2011-12-15T15:22:39Z")

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> [@GrandpaDave](#):
>
> You seem to be assuming that the “first cause” is only that. God on the other hand is involved along the way.

You seem to be assuming “God”.

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**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predestination-vs-free-will/605109/45 "2011-12-15T15:40:12Z")

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> [@smiling\_bandit](#):
>
> Potentially, but not necessarily.

What are you referring to? Schrödinger evolution _is_ necessarily deterministic; the future state of the wave function can be determined exactly applying Schrödinger’s equation. It’s only the apparent collapse in a measurement context that introduces indeterminism – potentially, but not necessarily.

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**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predestination-vs-free-will/605109/46 "2011-12-15T16:07:16Z")

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> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#):
>
> What are you referring to? Schrödinger evolution _is_ necessarily deterministic; the future state of the wave function can be determined exactly applying Schrödinger’s equation. It’s only the apparent collapse in a measurement context that introduces indeterminism – potentially, but not necessarily.

I mean that from our perspective there’s no way to tell which (if either) is actually correct, and therefore it’s irrelevant.

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