# Predict the Outcome of Florida vs. George Zimmerman **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 21, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528 "2013-06-21T01:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/41 "2013-06-22T05:44:41Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > GZ wasn’t told to stop pursuing anyone and the State of Florida allowed GZ to carry a concealed firearm in the state of Florida. Not only was he not told to stop following him he wasn’t even asked not to follow him. The dispatcher said they didn’t need him to follow the suspect. At best it was a suggestion. And based on the wind sounds on the phone call and the fact they lost sight of each other this was done. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/42 "2013-06-22T20:41:54Z")
Covered in detail in the other thread, but [dueling audio specialists](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/judge-audio-testimony-zimmerman-trial-19463338#.UcYFZ9jpGPM) are off the itinerary. I read in a separate article where this is expected to shorten the trial by about a week. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/43 "2013-06-22T22:55:33Z")
Guilty but acquitted. Just a gut feeling. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/44 "2013-06-23T13:28:38Z")
I think he’s guilty but will be acquitted. Right wingers flood emergency rooms nationwide after having erections lasting more than four hours. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/45 "2013-06-23T16:01:45Z")
Well, if the jury selection is any indication of how this trail is going to go, the State is going to have their ass handed to them. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/46 "2013-06-23T16:08:58Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Right wingers flood emergency rooms nationwide after having erections lasting more than four hours. Really? This was necessary? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/47 "2013-06-23T16:46:00Z")
I think he’s guilty, but I honestly don’t know what the juries verdict will be. So I voted “something else”. Without even knowing if Zimmerman will take the stand, it’s hard to guess what the defense is capable of arguing. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/48 "2013-06-23T19:05:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Since the jury doesn’t have the choice of manslaughter, they should acquit, and I believe they will. Are you sure about that? I thought manslaughter came included as a lesser charge. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/49 "2013-06-23T19:29:52Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Are you sure about that? I thought manslaughter came included as a lesser charge. IIUIC, it does, but the defense has to agree to have it included in the jury instructions. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/50 "2013-06-25T05:30:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > These condo’s are 20 feet from the curb and not houses that are set back from the road so that distance would be halfway. This is a gated community and not a township road. Even if the township “owns” the land for purposes of sewer lines and such the homeowner is expected to maintain it and it’s use is considered that of the homeowners. You can’t pitch a tent on it and expect to do so free and clear. The condo owners at Retreat at Twin Lakes do not own any of the property outside of their walls, only the buildings and adjoining concrete patio areas. The property lines end at the walls. Employees or contractors, not owners, do the yard work. I do not understand this talk of trespass, when all grassy areas and concrete walkways are community property, open to use for all residents and their guests. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/51 "2013-06-25T14:39:06Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Are you sure about that? I thought manslaughter came included as a lesser charge. Well, manslaughter is indeed a lesser-included charge of second-degree murder. But “lesser-included charge” does not mean “a charge that the jury can consider alongside the charges presented in the indictment or information.” A lesser-included charge is simply a charge whose elements are a subset of the elements of the original charge. The jury can consider only the charges it’s given. The prosecution can choose to charge any lesser-included offense, or not. At the conclusion of the evidence, the defense can ask that the jury be instructed on any lesser-included offense that’s supported by the evidence adduced during trial. So for both sides, it’s a strategy call. The prosecution is worried that if they give the jury an option of manslaughter, they’ll lose on second-degree murder as the jury compromises. By charging only second-degree murder, they give the jury a stark choice: you know he did SOMETHING wrong. Your choices are acquittal or second-degree murder. The defense has a similar calculation: if they think the jury will answer the prosecution’s dilemma by acquitting, they leave well-enough alone. If they think the jury might convict, then they ask for a manslaughter instruction, reasoning that the jury may take the compromise. But none of it happens automatically. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/52 "2013-06-25T14:45:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > IIUIC, it does, but the defense has to agree to have it included in the jury instructions. At this stage, yes. The state can charge any lesser-included offense before trial, and the defense has no choice about the matter. But now that the trial has started, the defense could argue prejudice – they could, for example, say, “Look, our strategy was to admit to every single element of manslaughter, but show that the state can’t prove the malice, hatred, ill-will element necessary for second-degree murder. To amend the information now would prejudice our defense.” ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/53 "2013-06-25T15:05:54Z")
Something else: I don’t know if he is guilty under the laws in Florida even though if what seemed to have happened did happen then what he did should be illegal (to put it mildly). I also don’t know what the outcome will be. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/54 "2013-06-25T17:15:20Z")
The question as posed assumes specific ignorance of Florida law in the matter. Knowing that it would be impossible to get results based on a strict analysis of the facts, partly due to a lack of having all the facts, and the other part being humans, I’m just after some rough numbers about how people here actually feel about the case. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/55 "2013-06-25T18:19:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At this stage, yes. > > The state can charge any lesser-included offense before trial, and the defense has no choice about the matter. But now that the trial has started, the defense could argue prejudice – they could, for example, say, “Look, our strategy was to admit to every single element of manslaughter, but show that the state can’t prove the malice, hatred, ill-will element necessary for second-degree murder. To amend the information now would prejudice our defense.” So it is now 2nd degree, or nothing, unless the defense agrees? Then the prosecution better have some blockbuster evidence that nobody has published yet. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/56 "2013-06-25T18:22:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So it is now 2nd degree, or nothing, unless the defense agrees? Most likely, yes. It’s possible the prosecution could move to amend the information, and the defense objects, but the judge permits it anyway. Her decision would have to take into account the actual prejudice she feels the defense would suffer. If they’ve fought each and every element of the crime with equal vigor, she might conclude that they would have done the same thing even if manslaughter had been charged from the get-go and thus no prejudice inures to the defense effort now. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/57 "2013-06-25T18:49:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If they’ve fought each and every element of the crime with equal vigor, she might conclude that they would have done the same thing even if manslaughter had been charged from the get-go and thus no prejudice inures to the defense effort now. Thanks. Does this mean that the judge would conclude that the defense had fought just as hard against the specific idea that Zimmerman had acted with reckless disregard for Martin’s life as they did against the specific idea that Zimmerman had acted with ill will or malice? Or would that be included in any general defense against criminal motive? It would seem to my non-lawyerly mind that, insofar as the defense argues self-defense, they are arguing equally hard against both reckless disregard and ill will/malice. Besides, what else does the defense have? They certainly aren’t going to argue that Zimmerman didn’t shoot him, or that it didn’t happen in Florida. The defense is arguing AFAICT that Zimmerman’s motive was self-defense - and that therefore he was acting neither out of ill will nor with reckless disregard. Reckless regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/58 "2013-06-25T19:13:54Z")
There is no option for me - I honestly don’t know if Z is guilty or not. I mean, I do think he’s a racist asshole who had no business getting out of his car; but I also realize that he may have been attacked by Martin and felt that his life was in immediate danger. Morally, I think he’s responsible for the event, but legally I’m not totally convinced. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/59 "2013-06-25T19:14:13Z")
I predict that whatever results, those of us in Florida will be called stupid and it won’t end well. Trainwreck comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528/60 "2013-06-25T20:49:32Z")
If Zimmerman is convicted, what will that mean for Florida’s self-defense laws? Will Stand Your Ground be a dead letter? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predict-the-outcome-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/661528.md?page=4)