# Predicting Cameron's Avatar: Waterworld or Titanic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 1, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638 "2009-12-01T23:29:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/241 "2009-12-12T21:05:34Z")
I wasn’t expecting this to be any good, and yesterday I went over to Rotten Tomatoes just to read the negative reviews it has gotten so far. I have to say, the negative reviews make me want to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/242 "2009-12-12T21:14:26Z")
I predict I won’t care one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/243 "2009-12-12T21:20:20Z")
I don’t think I will be seeing it. What I’ve read of the plot sounds amazingly juvenile. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/244 "2009-12-12T23:27:59Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I have not seen such passion on both sides about a movie in years. One group does seem, as you say. angry that the film was made. See that’s the weird thing–I haven’t seen this alleged side at all. Cameron has always liked putting himself on the cross a bit, but I’ve done quite a bit of reading on the film (and I work in the industry myself), and I haven’t seen anti-_Avatar_ sentiment as much as anti-_Avatar_-hype sentiment. There will always be a backlash if the publicity machine throws words like “revolutionary”, “ground-breaking”, “earth-shattering”, “paradigm-shifting”, etc. into the fray. And while Cameron has a reputation for being a marvelous visual stylist, expert choreographer of action and large-scale setpieces, and maniacal pefectionist (in a good way), he also has a history of showing a tin-ear for dialogue, a ham-fisted approach to theme and tone, and a pandering sensibility. Which, for some people is fine–they like his movies because of (or in spite of) these things. But not everyone can or will. A leopard (even a blue one that talks) doesn’t easily change its spots, so while I haven’t seen a whole lot of anger or resentment towards the very existence of the film, the dubious skepticism that some have towards it (espcially with all the hype surrounding its release) has some real foundation, and isn’t just knee-jerk “sour grapes” reactionism. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/245 "2009-12-12T23:42:39Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I have not seen such passion on both sides about a movie in years. One group does seem, as you say. angry that the film was made. Another group seems to feel this is the second coming of Citizen Kane, or that their personal well-being is connected to the success of the film. > > It is fascinating to watch from the sidelines. > > As I said, I have no interest at this time to see this film, although I might change my mind once it is released and people whose opinions I trust have seen it. I’m into it, I want to see it. I have a personal connection to it, and I love Sci Fi epics, and James Cameron just makes a good flick. Citizen Kane? Nah. Up there with Star Wars and Lord of the Rings? I think it’s got a shot. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > For the record, I’m just disinterested. Although the latest TV trailer (the one with wave after wave of walking mecha) does look pretty bitchin’. I don’t think you were so hurt about it. All of your arguments have been more movie geek kinds of crits. Heh cool. I think they have roundly failed at the trailers. The original way they were going to do the promo was to not show ANY of the film at all. But Fox wouldn’t back that play. The trailers have made it seem cheesy as fuck, but I’m down, I think it’ll be cool. I think it’ll be worth my $ 12.50, especially since I am being subsidized to see it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lethal\_Babydoll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@Lethal\_Babydoll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lethal_Babydoll)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/246 "2009-12-13T00:03:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You could see it as green and anti-war. I’ll prefer to see it as about the right to self-determination of sentient beings. 😉 Exactly. I hate hippies more than Cartman does, but I wouldn’t miss this for the world ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/247 "2009-12-13T01:35:03Z")
> [@Lethal\_Babydoll](#): > > Exactly. I hate hippies more than Cartman does, but I wouldn’t miss this for the world Well if it makes you feel any better, the carbon footprint of the film is probably of Titanic proportions. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/248 "2009-12-14T19:59:21Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Heh, all good literature/film has a moral message. If you don’t want a moral message, then stick to crap. See, but it’s entirely possible for crap to have a message, too: IMO, that’s something that can make a movie almost unwatchable for me, to have a message hammered in over, and over, and over again, presumably under the assumption that the audience is retarded. That’s what I’m worried about with _Avatar_, really: an overly simplistic plot that’s patronizing toward non-Western cultures and carries a ham-fisted attempt at making some kind of point or another. 91% Fresh on Rotten Tomatoes so far, though. If it doesn’t nosedive after it actually releases, I’ll probably go see it. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/249 "2009-12-14T20:41:50Z")
Note that [this](http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/2009/12/not_right-wing.php) is from someone who liked the movie: > [@](#): > > The political import of _Avatar_ – and there’s no waving this aspect away because it’s right in your face start to finish, and especially in the third act – is ardently left. It is pro-indigenous native, anti-corporate, anti-imperialist, anti-U.S. Iraq War effort, anti-U.S.-in-Afghanistan (and anti-troop-surge-in-that-country, or strongly against the thinking of President Barack Obama and Gen. Stanley McChrystal), anti-rightie, anti-Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld, etc. > > Yes, it’s very teenaged adolescent in its super-imaginative wacko visions and exuberant energy levels, but politically it’s pure Che Guevara (more the _Motorcycle Diaries_ or Che-in-Cuba version than Che in Bolivia), Naom Chomsky, Hugo Chavez, Howard Zinn, Gore Vidal, Oliver Stone, etc. Cameron is an earth-hugging lefty from way back (the flagrant despise-the-arrogant-rich current in _Titanic_ being but one example) so this should come as no surprise to anyone. I for one am cheered and heartened. > > If Sarah Palin sees _Avatar_ and then sits down and actually thinks about what it’s saying (which is always a dicey proposition, I admit), she’ll hate this movie. Because _Avatar_ hates her and her kind. Some righties will pretend to like it (“great popcorn flick! took my kids!”), but they’d have to be in major denial mode not to recognize that _Avatar_ is much more MSNBC than Fox News. It really spits on the Fox News philosophy/worldview. If Cameron had for some inane reason put a Fox News-type character in the film, he/she would end up with a Na’vi arrow through his/her chest, trust me. > > Call it the most flamboyant, costliest, grandest left-liberal super-movie anyone’s ever seen – a political tract that cost Rupert Murdoch God knows how many hundreds of millions to make and yet is totally pro-loincloth, pro-native, despise-the-greedy, hug-the-earth, worship-the-earth, down with the soulless short-end, down with the us-first, masters-of-the-universe thinking behind the Goldman Sachs/Timothy Geithner culture and up with the eternal/spiritual in all cultures and all corners of the globe. The tragedy of the Vietnam War echoes all through this film. Somewhere Ho Chi Minh is smiling. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/250 "2009-12-15T18:09:16Z")
I’m just worried that we’re going to end up with the Noble Savage archetype, which in some ways is just as damaging as the, er, Savage Savage (?) one. ETA: Three days to official release now, and the RT rating has dropped five percent to an 86%. Still good, but the drop isn’t encouraging for what we’re going to see once reviews are coming from more people who aren’t cherry-picked for gushing. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/251 "2009-12-16T14:43:11Z")
I’m not in the predicting business but when I first saw a preview for this project I had a major WTF moment. I mean, blue cat people? With tits? God damned furries have even infected James Cameron’s manly brain. Have they no shame? ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/252 "2009-12-16T15:06:53Z")
Well, I guess the question has been answered. From Rupert Murdoch’s Holiday Greeting e-mail: > [@](#): > > Blockbusters like _Ice Age 3_ and _Avatar_ may well change forever the way movies are made. There you have it – Rupert Murdoch has declared it a “blockbuster”. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/253 "2009-12-16T16:45:40Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > Note that [this](http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/2009/12/not_right-wing.php) is from someone who liked the movie: > > > [@](#): > > > > The political import of Avatar – and there’s no waving this aspect away because it’s right in your face start to finish, and especially in the third act – is ardently left. I don’t think that will figure much, in terms of box office. (The initial reviews don’t seem particular polar.) Apart from that indicator, I think people are used to disconnecting storytelling from their own values. How many bleeding heart liberals still enjoy action movies where the underlying philosophy is “might makes right?” When you watch _First Blood_, you accept that all the military and lawmen that get slaughtered had it coming, even if you would be appropriately horrified if a similar scenario played out in real life. The villain of _The Amazing Mr. Fox_ is an agriculturalist whose unpardonable sin is erecting a fence to keep critters from raiding his crops, but we still enjoy the story even if we recognize that this is a right and necessary practice. There are plenty of movies out there (most recently _Knowing_) that suggest that apocalyptic Christians have been right all along, and naive humanists are going to burn for their doubt – and they play pretty well outisde of the bible belt, because (gosh-darn it) they succeed at entertaining. _Avatar_ looks to be as entertaining as blue fuck – it’ll do well. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/254 "2009-12-16T17:32:47Z")
Another day, another few percentage points’ drop on RT. 83% fresh now. > [@marshmallow](#): > > God damned furries have even infected James Cameron’s manly brain. Ick. Thanks for putting that into my head. At least they’re… I dunno… aliens instead of anthropomorphized Earth animals. Ick ick ick. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/255 "2009-12-16T17:41:37Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > _Avatar_ looks to be as entertaining as blue fuck Very interesting choice of words there… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/256 "2009-12-16T17:55:07Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Another day, another few percentage points’ drop on RT. 83% fresh now. Also a very decent 82 at Metacritic. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/257 "2009-12-16T18:20:30Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Another day, another few percentage points’ drop on RT. 83% fresh now. Yup, only 8.3/10 people enjoyed the movie so far… ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/258 "2009-12-16T19:12:54Z")
The pre-release numbers are clearly going to be inflated. The real test will be where the ratings stabilize once it’s actually in theaters. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/259 "2009-12-16T22:34:33Z")
I went. It was awesome. Then I went to see it again. [SPOILERS] and [STUFF THAT DON’T MAKE SENSE UNTIL YOU’VE SEEN THE MOVIE] Loved it. There’s some really obvious shoutouts to current and past US politics (shock and awe, winning the hearts and minds yada yada) but I did not give a fuck because I was _fucking there, dude_. The trailers make this movie look like WAR BOMBS EXPLOSION JUST NUKE THE SITE FROM ORBIT. The movie is hardly about that, it takes two hours to get there. And those two hours are used building a wonderful universe, that’s coherent and well-thought-out. Yeah, there’s some eco-hippy-treehugging crap in there, but it makes _sense_. Cutting down a tree? Not a prob for me. Cutting down an internet-tree that allows you to talk to your dead grandma? Yeah, I’m not down with that. And that whole universe is so full of detail. Neytiri’s picture on the fridge. That same fridge having a FOR FOOD USE ONLY handwritten tag on it. Creatures that skitter about somewhere faaaaaaaaaaaaaar in the background. Some guy in the background having his cap blown off when a CGI plane lifts off. Seeing it twice was not enough to take everything in. And not everything is explained. Some is left to be figured out by the viewer, and things that are unimportant aren’t further explained. What does unobtanium do? It has a great exchange rate. Done, back to the alien planet. Done rambling for now, I still need to have most of this stuff sink in. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638/260 "2009-12-16T22:38:04Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > [SPOILERS] and [STUFF THAT DON’T MAKE SENSE UNTIL YOU’VE SEEN THE MOVIE] Is the rest of your post that, or was that a joking line? I don’t want to read it if it’s the former, and if it’s the latter, it’s confusing. If it’s the former, you might want to use the spoiler tag: [**spoiler][**/spoiler] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predicting-camerons-avatar-waterworld-or-titanic/519638.md?page=14)