# Predictions: Will the DADT repeal pass the Senate?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 16, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405 "2010-12-16T19:28:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/21 "2010-12-18T20:32:57Z")
Bill passes, 65-31.
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### Author:  [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/22 "2010-12-18T20:40:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> Bill passes, 65-31.
About damn time!
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/23 "2010-12-18T20:44:50Z")
OK, time for a dumb question.
Being neither gay nor in the military, I haven’t followed DADT other than to hold the position that gays should be allowed to serve.
Question: Does the repeal mean that gays can now be discharged even if they are not asked and/or do not tell? Or does it mean that gays can serve in the military?
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### Author:  [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/24 "2010-12-18T20:59:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
>
> OK, time for a dumb question.
>
> Being neither gay nor in the military, I haven’t followed DADT other than to hold the position that gays should be allowed to serve.
>
> Question: Does the repeal mean that gays can now be discharged even if they are not asked and/or do not tell? Or does it mean that gays can serve in the military?
I believe all it does is repeal DADT. So it will be up to the President what the military’s actual policy is regarding gays in the military. As a practical matter, Obama will presumably allow openly gay members, and once thats in place, it will be pretty unlikely that even a very conservative future Prez would try and roll it back.
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### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/25 "2010-12-18T21:04:15Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> Bill passes, 65-31.
Utulie’n Aure!
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### Author:  [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/26 "2010-12-18T21:07:47Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> Bill passes, 65-31.
And in today’s “profiles in courage”, Senators Burr and Ensign bravely voted against bringing the bill to a vote, but then voted for the bill itself. The senate is insane.
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### Author:  [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/27 "2010-12-18T21:10:14Z")
> [@Simplicio](#):
>
> And in today’s “profiles in courage”, Senators Burr and Ensign bravely voted against bringing the bill to a vote, but then voted for the bill itself. The senate is insane.
Just for a moment, they must have realized history was watching.
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### Author:  [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/28 "2010-12-18T21:14:53Z")
> [@Simplicio](#):
>
> I believe all it does is repeal DADT. So it will be up to the President what the military’s actual policy is regarding gays in the military. As a practical matter, Obama will presumably allow openly gay members, and once thats in place, it will be pretty unlikely that even a very conservative future Prez would try and roll it back.
So is “sodomy” (ie all same-sex sexual activity regardless of consent) still illegal under the UCMJ, or does this bill repeal those sections as well?
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### Author:  [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/29 "2010-12-18T21:26:48Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#):
>
> So is “sodomy” (ie all same-sex sexual activity regardless of consent) still illegal under the UCMJ, or does this bill repeal those sections as well?
Just DADT. I think the sodomy prohibition is a dead-letter anyways, though, since the SCOTUS found such laws are unconstitutional. So our naval traditions are safe.
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### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/30 "2010-12-18T21:31:15Z")
> [@Simplicio](#):
>
> Just DADT. I think the sodomy prohibition is a dead-letter anyways, though, since the SCOTUS found such laws are unconstitutional.
Members of the military lose a lot of the Constitutional protections that regular citizens enjoy. For example, conversations with military medical doctors are not privileged.
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/31 "2010-12-19T02:30:21Z")
The sodomy article of the UCMJ has not been repealed, and it’s not clear if the courts would apply _Lawrence v. Texas_ to the UCMJ or not–the courts have traditionally been very deferential to the executive branch in general and the military hierarchy in particular about this sort of thing (matters of military discipline within the armed forces).
One thing, though–[Article 125](http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc10.wais&start=3276965&SIZE=1566&TYPE=TEXT) of the UCMJ quite clearly applies to both heterosexual and homosexual conduct:
> [@](#):
>
> Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete the offense.
The [Manual for Courts-Martial](http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/MCM-2008.pdf) (NOTE: fairly enormous PDF file) expounds upon the text of the UCMJ and makes it clear that the article prohibits pretty much any act of not only anal sex but also oral sex as well (or at least fellatio–I’m not 100% sure if cunnilingus “counts” or not, just based on the text of the MCM here):
> [@](#):
>
> _Explanation_. It is unnatural carnal copulation for a person to take into that person’s mouth or anus the sexual organ of another person or of an animal; or to place that person’s sexual organ in the mouth or anus of another person or of an animal; or to have carnal copulation in any opening of the body, except the sexual parts, with another person; or to have carnal copulation with an animal.
Article 125 applies to _everyone_ subject to the UCMJ, and there are no exemptions in the text of the law for, for example, married persons (not even “married persons engaging in foreplay before continuing on to have penile-vaginal intercourse for the express purpose of having a child, who will then grow up to be a strong, patriotic, 100% American and join the military like his Daddy did”). Per the MCM, the maximum penalty for plain-vanilla sodomy (with no other agravating factors, like the act being committed by force and without consent, or with a child under the age of 12 years old) is “Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years”.
I rather imagine that if the military actually tried to apply Article 125 as written, we really would be left with an “Army of One” (who would spend his entire career trying to guard a really enormous stockade full of convicted military felons).
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### Author:  [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/32 "2010-12-19T03:10:56Z")
Active duty Capt chiming in to say “FINALLY”.
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### Author:  [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/33 "2010-12-19T03:23:29Z")
I’m amazed this got done, and am very happy about it. As wide a margin as this passed with, I’m convinced that had it not been passed now, it would not have in the next session, so I am extra thrilled.
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### Author:  [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/34 "2010-12-19T03:31:57Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#):
>
> Active duty Capt chiming in to say “FINALLY”.
Just out of curiosity, which service?
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### Author:  [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/35 "2010-12-19T03:40:37Z")
_cartwheels through this thread too_
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/36 "2010-12-19T20:31:35Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#):
>
> I’m amazed this got done, and am very happy about it. As wide a margin as this passed with, I’m convinced that had it not been passed now, it would not have in the next session, so I am extra thrilled.
This Congress couldn’t do anything else in its last session . . . so it did the one worthwhile thing it could do without spending money.
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### Author:  [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/37 "2010-12-19T20:35:59Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#):
>
> Active duty Capt chiming in to say “FINALLY”.
Keep us posted on how it’s going over.
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### Author:  [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/38 "2010-12-20T13:21:58Z")
Curiosities…
Why wasn’t DADT referred to as Clinton’s DADT the same way as the Bush Tax Cuts?
Can the transgendered serve now?
When will we see our first gay military wedding?
FWIW…since it’s obvious that I don’t hold this event with the same sense of (whatever) as most. I would like to state that I have no problem with gays serving in the military.
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### Author:  [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/39 "2010-12-20T13:48:14Z")
> [@What\_the](#):
>
> Curiosities…
>
> Why wasn’t DADT referred to as Clinton’s DADT the same way as the Bush Tax Cuts?
Clinton never ran on DADT as a campaign plank. Clinton initially wanted and proposed a complete end of the ban on homosexuals in the military, which would allow for homosexuals to serve openly. After the joint chiefs balked and the conservative elements in both parties raised numerous objections, DADT was introduced as a compromise. The Bush tax cuts were not a compromise.
> [@](#):
>
> Can the transgendered serve now?
The end of DADT will only prevent homosexuals from being kicked out of the military for their sexual orientation. It will not affect any policies or practices regarding transgendered people.
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### Author:  [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/predictions-will-the-dadt-repeal-pass-the-senate/564405/40 "2010-12-20T14:00:47Z")
> [@Camus](#):
>
> Clinton never ran on DADT as a campaign plank. Clinton initially wanted and proposed a complete end of the ban on homosexuals in the military, which would allow for homosexuals to serve openly. After the joint chiefs balked and the conservative elements in both parties raised numerous objections, DADT was introduced as a compromise. The Bush tax cuts were not a compromise.
OTOH, those tax cuts were something that many voters and politicians favored while DADT was a policy that Clinton’s admin devised (I think). Seems like DADT was something that should be more associated with a particular president than the tax cuts that happened to go thru during the Bush admin.
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