# Pregnant woman demands seat on train (London) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263 "2011-05-09T12:41:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/61 "2011-05-10T05:38:08Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > That’s a load a hooey. Wrong. > [@](#): > > The tiny doctor I work with who’s maybe 95 pounds soaking wet and never wore maternity clothes other than her husband’s sweatshirts, wasn’t noticeably pregnant until she was 7 MONTHS along. Damn straight she still needed that seat long before she was “visibly pregnant” unless she tightened her shirt and stuck her belly in your face. I suppose she could have just puked on you. Tough. I’ve known people like that too; unfortunately, there are too many people who will use these pins when they’re not pregnant. That’s sad, but life. I’m not going to believe that some random stranger is pregnant on just her say-so. So damn straight I’m going to look for proof. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/62 "2011-05-10T05:46:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Right. We should get rid of handicap license plates too. Aren’t those for the cars, not the people? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/63 "2011-05-10T05:57:59Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Aren’t those for the cars, not the people? No, they’re issued to the person, same as a placard. in California, if you order the plates, you also get a placard to use in other vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/64 "2011-05-10T08:19:23Z")
So I double-checked the train this morning on the way in. Each set of doors does have a ‘priority seating’ placard for the seat closest to the door, although only some of them specifically mention ‘pregnant women’ (other seats are 'multi-purpose areas with folding seats for strollers, etc). Anyone sitting in those seats is expected to either leave the seats free or vacate them for someone less able to stand. So in that sense, the woman was well within her rights to ask for the seat. However, I have seen women do this in all areas of the train, not just the priority seat. And my wife was mortified more than anything at the women’s attitude. ‘She doesn’t deserve a seat if she can’t ask nicely’, as she put it. I also read or do paperwork on the train quite often, and precisely because I don’t want to get interrupted if I can help it, I try to sit near the middle of the train. But I was raised to be courteous to everyone. If someone obviously needs a seat (young/old/male/female/pregant or otherwise), you get up. If you get to the door first, you hold it open for who’s behind you. Common courtesy goes a long way. But equally important, I think, is that common courtesy loses its shine when it’s accepted with a sense of bloated self-worth and entitlement. Pregnant women go through an awful lot, so a seat on the train in the grand scheme of things is the least we can do to help…but seeing the woman’s attitude yesterday left a bad taste in the mouth of more than a handful of people that saw it. Karma hopefully will see to it that on her next train ride all priority seats are already filled with pregnant women for the entire ride on a super-crowded train. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/65 "2011-05-10T09:05:50Z")
offering your seat to someone else is a courtesy. i’ll tell her, “ask someone else. nicely.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/66 "2011-05-10T09:20:44Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Tough. I’ve known people like that too; unfortunately, there are too many people who will use these pins when they’re not pregnant. That’s sad, but life. I’m not going to believe that some random stranger is pregnant on just her say-so. So damn straight I’m going to look for proof. Right on, brother! She should whip out a pregnancy test stick and pee on it, right there in front of you (to ensure she isn’t using someone else’s urine), before you give up your seat. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/67 "2011-05-10T09:40:54Z")
If you make rules where people have to do something, people will be rude when you don’t follow them, since there’s no downside. I personally stay away from the most desirable seats, so I don’t risk having to get up, as standing makes me much more carsick than sitting. Come to think of it, do even non-showing pregnant people get carsick more easily than usual? I’ve always thought morning sickness was correlated with motion sickness. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/68 "2011-05-10T09:43:47Z")
Morning sickness / queasiness is also more common in the first trimester when you’re least likely to be showing. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/69 "2011-05-10T10:02:54Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > If they’re only a few weeks pregnant, so little that you can’t even tell, do they really have a condition that requires them to be sitting all the time? On the train (and I assume generally), the seats are designated for the disabled, pregnant and elderly - I believe with the intent of meaning anyone who might _reasonably_ request to sit there. IMO, this means that anyone without a specific need who sits there should expect to have to vacate the seat if someone asks for it - even if the nature of the requestor’s need is not obviously apparent. I’d have thought most regular commuters would just accept this possibility as a fact of life and comply ungrudgingly. (That does, of course mean that someone with a less obviously apparent need may be sitting there, and may end up themselves being asked the question. Not sure how that should be handled). ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/70 "2011-05-10T10:10:55Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Tough. I’ve known people like that too; unfortunately, there are too many people who will use these pins when they’re not pregnant. That’s sad, but life. I’m not going to believe that some random stranger is pregnant on just her say-so. So damn straight I’m going to look for proof. Why on earth would you feel you need to do that? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/71 "2011-05-10T11:06:12Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Wrong. > > Tough. I’ve known people like that too; unfortunately, there are too many people who will use these pins when they’re not pregnant. That’s sad, but life. I’m not going to believe that some random stranger is pregnant on just her say-so. So damn straight I’m going to look for proof. These pins are apparently issued by the transit authority, which presumably requires some kind of proof. They aren’t something a person can buy in a shop. Yes, I assume some women manage to get ahold of one through illicit means, but I am sure some women look very pregnant when they aren’t pregnant at all. It’s not clear your method is really any more reliable than trusting the pins. Serious question: if there is a 50% chance that you are leaving a person in terrible discomfort/pain to stand, and a 50% chance you are being taken for a chump, would you really rather risk leaving someone in pain than risk being a chump? Because to me that seems like prioritizing pride over kindness, something that really baffles me. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/72 "2011-05-10T11:12:16Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m not going to believe that some random stranger is pregnant on just her say-so. So damn straight I’m going to look for proof. “Quit screaming in my face, lady. I won’t give you my seat until you spread 'em and I can check up the state of your cervix. Take it or leave it.” ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/73 "2011-05-10T11:30:17Z")
Holy crap! Not so single anyone out (oh, ok I can’t resist it - **Quartz** , you’re being an idiot) but anyone who thinks giving up your seat for pregnant women should be restricted solely or even mostly to _visibly_ pregnant women is Oh. So. Wrong. The worst point, the absolute pits of my pregnancies in terms of physical fitness? About 8 weeks along. And I didn’t even have morning sickness - just a total bone-sapping lethargy. I think I was sleeping about 12 huors a day and the rest of the time I wanted to be. Compared to that … seven months? eight months? Eh, bring it on, I was standing up on trams all the way home at that point and didn’t even want a seat (since I’d been sitting down all day on the job). Just as well, since nobody ever offered one. See, there’s this thing called _winter_, and people tend to wear heavy enveloping clothes… I had someone (who’d been seeing and talking to me every day for the previous four weeks) ask hesitantly if I might possibly be pregnant _on my due date_. If I remember correctly, public transport signs on the seats near the doors here read “Please _offer_ your seat to… \”. Nobody can offer if they don’t know. I bet for every pregnant woman you spot on the way to work there are three more flying under the radar who are more in need of a sit down than she is. I think the pin is a great idea. Oh, and the woman in the original anecdote? Not rude. I never asked, myself, but she’s entitled to. ---
**Author:** ![Promethea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Promethea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Promethea)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/74 "2011-05-10T11:34:40Z")
My understanding is the badges are in part designed to remove the possibility of both parties being mortified if it turns out a lady being offered a seat \*isn’t \*pregnant, just carrying weight around her middle or wearing an unflattering top. And yes, from the[TFL guidance](http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/transportaccessibility/1169.aspx)it looks like the default setting is that the priority seats are kept free for those who need them, or are to be offered to those who look like they might want them. From the guidance: > [@](#): > > All trains have clearly marked priority seating next to doors. These are for disabled people, pregnant women, older people, those travelling with children and anyone less able to stand. **Passengers are expected to leave these seats free or vacate them if they see someone who might require a seat**. If no one offers, feel free to ask. > > Priority seating on the train Pregnant women can also wear a ‘Baby on board’ badge to let other passengers know they may need a seat. These are available from our Customer Service Centre, or by calling 0845 330 9880 or emailing [babyonboard@tfl.gov.uk](mailto:babyonboard@tfl.gov.uk). (Bolding mine) The scheme was brought in partly in response to surveys suggesting pregnant women were having to stand for an average of five tube stops, with 35% not being offered a seat at all. Link to an old article about the badge launch here: [London ‘worst’ for pregnant women](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4833214.stm). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/75 "2011-05-10T11:52:05Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > These pins are apparently issued by the transit authority, which presumably requires some kind of proof. They aren’t something a person can buy in a shop. They’re given out free at Tube and train stations (if they have any) but they don’t require proof. I got one for my wife. So yes, you could pretend to be pregnant in order to get a seat but it’d be about as dickish as assuming that someone wearing one is faking it. You might as well stuff a pillow under your shirt. If the seats are free I sit in them but if I see someone who looks like they might be in need of it (which does not include able-bodied-looking women\* but does include pregnant women, parents with small children, frail elderly people etc) I ask “Would you like to sit down?”. Sometimes they say no (and even people in the aforementioned categories may not want to sit, especially if they’re only going a few stops) and sometimes they thank me and sit down. I’ve yet to encounter anyone I thought might be faking it to take a seat and I haven’t yet had anyone take offense at my offer. In days of old (i.e. pre-1996), there would be a guard or conductor on the train and if a pregnant lady needed a seat he would have told the nearest man or boy to surrender his seat, and not in polite terms either. Nowadays it’s all self-enforced. I agree that those in need should ask nicely but I also think those who can stand should acquiesce graciously. - I have had women argue with me that wearing high heels constituted just cause to be given seating priority. Sorry, but stupid shoes are not a medical condition. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/76 "2011-05-10T11:52:07Z")
In Quartz’s defense, I’m sure there’s an absolute rash of women faking pregnancy just to get helpless businessmen to have to move seats on the train. Even the visibly pregnant are suspect! Why, that could be a pillow or basketball stuffed inside her shirt! I suggest demanding a strip search any time a woman “claiming” to be pregnant politely asks for one of the seats set aside for pregnant women. After all, businessmen are notoriously hurried and NEED those seats by the front. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/77 "2011-05-10T13:13:26Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > No, they’re issued to the person, same as a placard. > > in California, if you order the plates, you also get a placard to use in other vehicles. You misunderstand. The point is, the handicapped people don’t carry the placard around with them when they’re not using any vehicle. They are _for_ the accommodation of cars. For that matter, in some places pregnant women can get similar temporary placards for convenience in _parking their cars_. Tagging the _people_ is a different dynamic. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/78 "2011-05-10T13:42:17Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > You misunderstand. The point is, the handicapped people don’t carry the placard around with them when they’re not using any vehicle. They are _for_ the accommodation of cars. For that matter, in some places pregnant women can get similar temporary placards for convenience in _parking their cars_. Tagging the _people_ is a different dynamic. The purpose of the handicapped spaces and the purpose of the priority seats are similar: to accommodate those for whom the longer walk from the car or standing on the train/tube/bus would be a genuine hardship. And since you don’t take your car on the train, you have to label yourself. Look at it this way: if you think labelling yourself is tacky then it’s something you’ll only do if you really need the extra accommodation. Win all around. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/79 "2011-05-10T13:52:14Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The purpose of the handicapped spaces and the purpose of the priority seats are similar: to accommodate those for whom the longer walk from the car or standing on the train/tube/bus would be a genuine hardship. And since you don’t take your car on the train, you have to label yourself. I understand what you’re saying, but I still see a distinction. For a parked car, with its driver away, there’s no way for parking enforcement personnel to know of handicapped status but by the license plate or placard. We have to label the _inanimate thing_ to assure its proper handling. For _human beings_ among other human beings, decency and appropriate accommodation should not require signage. As **Acsenray** says, we have the ability to speak to one another. It is demeaning to everyone involved when we don’t use it. And of course I feel that _visibly_ pregnant or disabled people should be accommodated instantly, with barely even a word necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/80 "2011-05-10T14:32:04Z")
Theres a key distinction here. You can’t ask a car to give up its space - politely or otherwise - because it’s not a person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263.md?page=5)