# Pregnant woman demands seat on train (London) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263 "2011-05-09T12:41:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/81 "2011-05-10T14:41:43Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Holy crap! > > Not so single anyone out (oh, ok I can’t resist it - **Quartz** , you’re being an idiot) but anyone who thinks giving up your seat for pregnant women should be restricted solely or even mostly to _visibly_ pregnant women is Oh. So. Wrong. Suck it up and blame the women who are scammers. Faking (anything) is the oldest trick in the book; faking pregnancy is no different. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/82 "2011-05-10T14:44:39Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Suck it up and blame the women who are scammers. Name three. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/83 "2011-05-10T14:47:52Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Serious question: if there is a 50% chance that you are leaving a person in terrible discomfort/pain to stand, and a 50% chance you are being taken for a chump, would you really rather risk leaving someone in pain than risk being a chump? Because to me that seems like prioritizing pride over kindness, something that really baffles me. Yes, this is also what I don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/84 "2011-05-10T14:59:55Z")
I’ve started a thread like this before, but I still don’t understand why society falls all over themselves for pregnant women. Yeah, it sucks, but it’s a choice they made for selfish gains. But yet we actually designate seats on metros for their oh-so-special condition. Why doesn’t the London Underground issue pins for people undergoing chemotherapy? They’re probably way more nauseated than pregnant women. Or for obese people? Their joints probably hurt worse. From what I can tell, unless common conditions like osteoarthritis, obesity, or jobs which require you to stand at all times also allow you to get pins, this whole thing is unfair. Again, these women choose to get pregnant and I think they should have to deal with resultant consequences, good and bad. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/85 "2011-05-10T15:06:59Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > I’ve started a thread like this before, but I still don’t understand why society falls all over themselves for pregnant women. Yeah, it sucks, but it’s a choice they made for selfish gains. But yet we actually designate seats on metros for their oh-so-special condition. Presumably because TfL policymakers have a pretty good idea of who’s going to be paying their pensions in thirty years. Reproduction may be fairly selfish, but it’s selfish for the whole society that needs young workers, not just the individual women who happen to be gestating. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/86 "2011-05-10T15:08:27Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Serious question: if there is a 50% chance that you are leaving a person in terrible discomfort/pain to stand, and a 50% chance you are being taken for a chump, would you really rather risk leaving someone in pain than risk being a chump? Because to me that seems like prioritizing pride over kindness, something that really baffles me. And unless **Quartz** lives in a particularly nasty part of the country, I bet the numbers are more 99% genuine / 1% scam. I honestly don’t see it in South London. > [@Gestalt](#): > > I’ve started a thread like this before, but I still don’t understand why society falls all over themselves for pregnant women. Yeah, it sucks, but it’s a choice they made for selfish gains. But yet we actually designate seats on metros for their oh-so-special condition. Those selfish bitches, choosing to bring another life into this world. > [@](#): > > Why doesn’t the London Underground issue pins for people undergoing chemotherapy? They’re probably way more nauseated than pregnant women. Or for obese people? Their joints probably hurt worse. Because it’s not a common condition, unlike pregnancy. They can still ask someone to move for them. > [@](#): > > From what I can tell, unless common conditions like osteoarthritis, obesity, or jobs which require you to stand at all times also allow you to get pins, this whole thing is unfair. I’m sorry. I’ll see if they have a pin for extreme petulance. > [@](#): > > Again, these women choose to get pregnant and I think they should have to deal with resultant consequences, good and bad. Yeah. Stupid women. If you don’t want to stand on the train, get an abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/87 "2011-05-10T15:12:05Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Those selfish bitches, choosing to bring another life into this world. You’ve failed to actually address any of my points. Why should pregnant women get handled with such kid gloves? The only reason I can think of is to encourage procreation so there’s a new generation of worker bees. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/88 "2011-05-10T15:13:09Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Stupid women. If you don’t want to stand on the train, get an abortion. Basically, yeah. If you don’t want to deal with the unpleasantness of pregnancy, don’t get pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/89 "2011-05-10T15:14:34Z")
One of these days, I just may make myself a fluorescent yellow pin that says “I HAVE BONE SPURS IN MY LEFT ANKLE JOINT AND A NEUROMA IN MY RIGHT FOOT, WHICH IS WHY I CONTINUE TO SIT WHEN PREGNANT PEOPLE AND CHILDREN ARE STANDING.” I’d only use it when I was feeling really gimpy, though. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/90 "2011-05-10T15:27:53Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > Basically, yeah. If you don’t want to deal with the unpleasantness of pregnancy, don’t get pregnant. I love these threads, for the inevitable “goddamn pregnant women wanting to sit down on the bus” responses. Suddenly pregnancy = selfish bitch, sort of like how the anti-union people are working hard to convince everyone that teachers and cops are self-entitled assholes. The entire reason the pins are issued is because so many people were being selfish douchebags and refusing to do the right thing and let pregnant women sit down, so it’s kind of ironic that the pins are now being used as justification for, you guessed it, being a selfish douchebag and refusing to let pregnant women sit down. And FTR, if you’re able-bodied, you should give your seat to anyone who needs it. Pregnant, chemotherapy patient, bone spurs, whatever. I don’t need a doctor’s certificate to give up my seat to someone who says they need it. Christ. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/91 "2011-05-10T15:28:32Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > The only reason I can think of is to encourage procreation so there’s a new generation of worker bees. Which is in everyone’s interest, so I don’t understand the problem with it. IIRC the priority seats do say something about people who are “pregnant, elderly or otherwise have difficulty standing”, which includes eg chemo patients. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/92 "2011-05-10T15:34:05Z")
Everyone always says, “well, I would let anyone who needed a seat sit down” but they only issue pins for pregnant women. And, of all the conditions listed, pregnancy is the only condition the sufferer freely chose to have, yet it still gets the most attention. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/93 "2011-05-10T15:40:14Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > You’ve failed to actually address any of my points. Why should pregnant women get handled with such kid gloves? > > The only reason I can think of is to encourage procreation so there’s a new generation of worker bees. To me it’s basic empathy, but you can also coldly rationalize it by assessing that standing is more unpleasant to a pregnant woman that it is to an able bodied adult, therefore switching seating arrangements strictly decreases the total amount of unpleasantness in the world (although it strictly increases the amount you, personally, feel). Which sounds like a good thing to me. 'sides, Golden Rule. If I stand for the elderly now, I can expect young whippersnappers to stand for me when I’m old and decrepit. Which I’m sure I’ll appreciate if I make it that far. I probably won’t get pregnant in the foreseeable future on account of being a dude, but my girlfriend could and I’ll feel better myself if she’s not made to feel more miserable than she needs to be. So you can also think of it as an investment directly benefiting you on top of the collective. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/94 "2011-05-10T15:40:25Z")
Who gives a shit if a needy person is wearing a pin or not, or for that matter whether their condition is by choice? Maybe the leg amputee had diabetic neuropathy from years of being on the all-Twinkie diet. I’m still giving him my seat on the bus. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/95 "2011-05-10T15:42:32Z")
My point is that the underground has only institutionalized one form of disability by issuing a pin. A lot of conditions (such as the aforementioned neuromas and bone spurs) are less visible than most pregnancies, more painful than most pregnancies, and get no fast-track-to-sitting pin. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/96 "2011-05-10T15:45:51Z")
Really? It’s just the pins that bother you? Because your previous posts suggest it’s the selfish pregnant women that are the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/97 "2011-05-10T15:51:08Z")
I think my first and subsequent post made it clear that the singling out of pregnant woman, among all conditions that merit prioritized seating, and the distribution of pins to just them, annoys me. In general I do think society goes out of its way for pregnant women, and I think this pin situation is an example thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/98 "2011-05-10T15:56:48Z")
[This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=540593) details some of the issues I have with societal “perks” given to pregnant women. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/99 "2011-05-10T16:04:55Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > The entire reason the pins are issued is because so many people were being selfish douchebags and refusing to do the right thing and let pregnant women sit down, so it’s kind of ironic that the pins are now being used as justification for, you guessed it, being a selfish douchebag and refusing to let pregnant women sit down. It’s kind of interesting since England is supposed to be all nice and polite but according to this thread they’re dicks on the train. In New York City, where “go fuck yourself” is practically the local motto and it is _not required_ to give your seat to a pregnant woman, a pregnant woman tracked how often she was given a seat – strangers offered her their seat 81% of the time, a result which surprised her greatly. > **[Pregnant Woman Charts Subway Chivalry](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pregnant-woman-tracks-how_n_833346)** > > Pregnant Woman Charts Subway Chivalry I will offer my seat to a pregnant woman. I will also offer my seat to a parent traveling with a toddler. Or a person of any age carrying lots of heavy bags. Sometimes just because someone looks like they feel more tired than me. Just be nice sometimes, people. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263/100 "2011-05-10T16:05:17Z")
Ultimately what my frustration comes down to is the fact that society, in my opinion, puts pregnant women on a pedestal because 1. Childbearing is considered somehow “virtuous” 2. Pregnant women are a very visible form of sexual inequality which some elements of society would like to promote I feel like in America there’s a cult of pregnancy which furthers a lot of negative stereotypes in general about women. Pregnant women are portrayed as weak, irrational, needy, anxious, delicate, etc. And many women buy into this packaging of pregnancy. Anyways, this is turning into a bit of a hijack. For the purposes of this thread, I’m annoyed at the pins. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pregnant-woman-demands-seat-on-train-london/581263.md?page=6)