# Premiss: "Atheism" is for people who can't handle "Religion". **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199 "2012-01-11T19:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/181 "2012-01-12T14:52:03Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I think you are confusing the neural pattern with what caused the neural pattern. If my visual receptors fire in a certain patter when I see a red ball, and you then put in a lab, hook me up to electrodes that then cause the same pattern of visual receptors to fire, you can’t equate the two absolutely - even though you can stipulate the mental event is the same, the external cause is clearly different. From the article: What Does All This Mean? It is clear that the meaning of the understanding of these phenomena are easily explained in detail through well-understood neurological processes in the brain. What are widely regarded as evidence for the existence of a spiritual realm can easily be explained by the material, the mundane. So in the light of that reality, what does the religionist have to say? Those who have communicated their interpretations to me say that they remain unconvinced that this means any new. I disagree. For most who write to me regarding my essays about the reality of a metaphysical universe, I have but one thing to say: your most powerful, persuasive evidence, namely your own powerful, personal experience, can now be easily and rationally explained, in all its features. No metaphysical explanation is necessary. **Because no metaphysical explanation is required to explain your experience, your “evidence” is no longer evidence of anything metaphysical.** Please also read (it’s a very short one-page story by Carl Sagan): [http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article\_dragon.htm](http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/182 "2012-01-12T14:58:23Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I’m an atheist. > > I’ll admit that I don’t know for SURE that God doesn’t exist. > > Now it’s your turn. Will you admit that you don’t know for SURE that God exists? How open-minded are you to the possibility that your faith may be wrong? I don’t know for SURE that He exists. If I did, it would be ordinary mundane knowledge. If my faith is wrong, and there is no God or Devil or survival of consciousness after death, there will be no ultimate vindication of my silly stupid faith. I’ll just cease to exist. I’ll have lived my life according to certain principles that didn’t make any worldly sense. There will be no ultimate reward or punishment, no reckoning, no answering of long-unanswered questions. If death is truly the end, so be it. But if death isn’t the end, and I live my life as a follower of Christ, and all my hopes and desires and and expectations are utterly vindicated … 😃 If it turns out the the atheists were always right, nobody gets to gloat in the stillness of the grave, where dirt and worm have their claim. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/183 "2012-01-12T15:01:15Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Oh religion causes much pain. But that isn’t why people believe. They believe because of what religion offers. Easy answers to weighty problems. > > The pain is caused when people try to live by the dictates of stinking bronze-age desert savages. I don’t think that is the case at all. Let’s drop the zealots and fundamentalists for a moment, and I’ll wager that if you talk to someone who takes their spiritual development seriously you will find someone who works very hard and would probably find it much easier to give up than to continue on. Case in point is this thread. The overwhelming reaction is dismissive. The assumption is that the topic is settled matter. I think it would be more beneficial for the two sides to listen to each other and even if you don’t agree, acknoweldge that you just don’t know enough about this Universe to claim such finality that your side is absolutely the final word. In their reaction to the opposition, atheists can be as entrenched as the religious fundamentalist they love to bash. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/184 "2012-01-12T15:03:52Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I don’t think that is the case at all. Let’s drop the zealots and fundamentalists for a moment, and I’ll wager that if you talk to someone who takes their spiritual development seriously you will find someone who works very hard and would probably find it much easier to give up than to continue on. Case in point is this thread. The overwhelming reaction is dismissive. The assumption is that the topic is settled matter. I think it would be more beneficial for the two sides to listen to each other and even if you don’t agree, acknoweldge that you just don’t know enough about this Universe to claim such finality that your side is absolutely the final word. In their reaction to the opposition, atheists can be as entrenched as the religious fundamentalist they love to bash. Huh. Your turn now: Are you trolling or have you not been reading what’s being said to you? Nobody here is “dismissing” anything. I can point out multiple instances where people are acknowledging that nobody knows and that no side is absolutely the final word. What atheists are saying is that there is no positive evidence to suggest that the theistic belief is correct, especially when other more plausible explanations exist. Again, please read the dragon story I just linked by Carl Sagan to get a better sense of the position. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/185 "2012-01-12T15:04:55Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Personally I agree, but mishagoe you’ll never get an atheist to admit to humility or cowardice or not knowing something. Atheism is not for people with any kind of human frailty. Ahem. From Post 95: [Quote=me] I’m not ‘escaping’ from anything at all, and I am certainly not uncomfortable with not knowing everything there is to know about the universe. [/Quote] Got any other sweeping, bigoted statements you’d like to make? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/186 "2012-01-12T15:06:19Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I don’t know for SURE that He exists. If I did, it would be ordinary mundane knowledge. If my faith is wrong, and there is no God or Devil or survival of consciousness after death, there will be no ultimate vindication of my silly stupid faith. I’ll just cease to exist. I’ll have lived my life according to certain principles that didn’t make any worldly sense. There will be no ultimate reward or punishment, no reckoning, no answering of long-unanswered questions. If death is truly the end, so be it. > > But if death isn’t the end, and I live my life as a follower of Christ, and all my hopes and desires and and expectations are utterly vindicated … 😃 > > If it turns out the the atheists were always right, nobody gets to gloat in the stillness of the grave, where dirt and worm have their claim. What if we are both wrong and the ancient Egyptians were right? Then we wouldn’t be prepared with our incantations that would enable us to be of equal moral weight as Ma’at. As a result we both would be committed to the flames of oblivion… ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/187 "2012-01-12T15:07:30Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Then why are you so cocksure in your atheism? Shouldn’t you be able to _not be right_? You seem to be cocksure in what atheism entails and what atheists believe, _even when they are telling you differently._ ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/188 "2012-01-12T15:14:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That you’re just a bag of chemicals that through luck has gotten a sliver of a tik of the cosmic clock to experience reality though consciousness. If you want meaning, you have to make it. If you want reality, _we_ have to fake it. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/189 "2012-01-12T15:20:16Z")
**RESPONSE TO:** > [@mishagoe](#): > > Case in point is this thread. The overwhelming reaction is dismissive. The assumption is that the topic is settled matter. I think it would be more beneficial for the two sides to listen to each other and even if you don’t agree, acknoweldge that you just don’t know enough about this Universe to claim such finality that your side is absolutely the final word. In their reaction to the opposition, atheists can be as entrenched as the religious fundamentalist they love to bash. **------------------------------------** **------------------------------------** **------------------------------------** > [@Meatros](#): > > Most atheists that I’ve talked with (anecdotal, I admit) are atheists because of a lack of evidence, not because they hope to have the answers to everything. > [@Chimera](#): > > To accept that it really is so vast that we will probably never understand it all. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Disagree mostly. To me, it seems like the opposite of what the OP is claiming is true. People who insist on answers when no answer is possible are the kind of people who will embrace a religion. > [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](#): > > I couldn’t disagree more with the OP. I can’t speak for other atheists, but to me, it’s the other way around. I came into atheism because over time it became very obvious to me that religion is a human contrivance, whose purpose in small part, is to explain away the big questions theretofore unanswered - among other things, to give us comfort that the vasty nothingness (to borrow a phrase from _Serenity_) out there is actually a vasty _somethingness_, and that only a deity could comprehend it. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I don’t believe in God, nor do I believe that “someday we will fathom our existence in every possible detail, leaving no question unanswered, complete masters of our existence and our future.” That sort of optimism is rarely found outside the faithful. > [@Marley23](#): > > Atheism doesn’t require affirmative belief, so “we don’t know” is not inconsistent with atheism. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Maybe you aren’t looking hard enough. Science assumes that we can’t know a lot of things, [for instance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle). > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Complete disagreement. I’m not ‘escaping’ from anything at all, and I am certainly not uncomfortable with not knowing everything there is to know about the universe. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Dawkins DOESN’T claim to know the “absolute purpose and meaning of the world”. Instead, he puts forward a provisional model of reality that happens to matches the evidence at hand. > > If a model of reality that included a deity suddenly became a better match for the evidence, then I suspect Dawkin would adopt it. I know I would, and I’m about as hardcore an atheist as there is. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes::dubious: No. That “science is sure to answer all questions someday” is **not** a defining belief of atheism, and not one shared by any atheist I’ve ever met. And certainly not by any scientist. Science begins with a humble admission of ignorance – which includes the rejection of authority, religious or otherwise; and then, from that starting point, goes and finds out. > [@Paralogic](#): > > The mystery of the universe will probably always remain a mystery to the human intelligence. The question is whether a human being chooses to apply reason in order to verify claims, or just accepts them for psychological or ego gratification. > > Atheism is the result of applying reason to the claims of supernatural existence, and refuting and dismissing unsubstantiated claims for the divine. Unfortunately, it’s not an appropriate label because it usually signifies the refusal of false claims, and not direct, affirmative statements about reality. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Strongly disagree. I doubt science will ever explain everything or that mankind can ever control even a tiny fraction of its own existence. I reject religion,or at least Judeo-Christianism, because it’s unimaginative, utterly groundless and _silly_. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I would say most atheists are quite fine with knowing that they do not, nor may never personally know something. > > Yet theists will ignore that their holy books are frauds and or forgeries with no historical or modern evidence of truth while ignoring the current scientific consensus that has been affirmed by fMRI that spirituality is a side affect of our hyperactive agency detection system. > [@Princhester](#): > > As to not knowing something, this is the default of all empirical people, atheists being empirical people. I know very little, really. And what I do consider myself to know I will throw out when evidence to the contrary comes along. That’s why I’m an atheist: I don’t know any gods exist. I have no certainty about the origins of the universe or life on Earth or what is moral and what isn’t or what happened in Galilee and environs about 2000 years ago. Nor do I have any certainty about what source I could use to find out about these things. The scientific method appears to work. That’s the most I can say. I suspect you have a great deal of certainty about your god or gods existence, and about the facts you believe as a consequence. > [@Lightnin](#): > > If there’s one underlying philosophy behind atheism, it’s “We don’t know.” We don’t know exactly how the universe came into being. We don’t know exactly how life originally formed. We don’t know if we’re alone in the universe, if there are other forms of life out there. > > We don’t know any of these things, and a multitude of other things, _so let’s find out_. Let’s \*not \*just assume that an invisible sky pixie made everything for us just because an old book says so. > > If anything, \*religion \*requires cowardice and ignorance, the willingness to say “God did it” whenever any question is asked. > [@martu](#): > > Disagree. I am an atheist because no one has convinced me that their ideas regarding a supernatural entity are credible. > > Let me fight your ignorance: > > I do not know whether God(s) exists. > > My pleasure! > [@Meatros](#): > > I don’t pretend to have all the answers. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I’m an atheist. > > I’ll admit that I don’t know for SURE that God doesn’t exist. > > Now it’s your turn. Will you admit that you don’t know for SURE that God exists? How open-minded are you to the possibility that your faith may be wrong? Sometimes you have to be explicit to really hammer your point home. **I mean, come on, even look at my username.** ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/190 "2012-01-12T15:23:06Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > Sometimes you have to be explicit to really hammer your point home. And sometimes you have to actually use a hammer. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/191 "2012-01-12T15:29:39Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > … I’ll wager that if you talk to someone who takes their spiritual development seriously you will find someone who works very hard and would probably find it much easier to give up than to continue on. What is spiritual development? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/192 "2012-01-12T15:38:43Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > So are you hard of reading or just another lame troll? > [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > Alright, so you’re a troll. You can’t call other posters trolls in this forum, or anyplace other than The BBQ Pit. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/193 "2012-01-12T15:46:50Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > From the article: > > What Does All This Mean? > It is clear that the meaning of the understanding of these phenomena are easily explained in detail through well-understood neurological processes in the brain. What are widely regarded as evidence for the existence of a spiritual realm can easily be explained by the material, the mundane. So in the light of that reality, what does the religionist have to say? > > Those who have communicated their interpretations to me say that they remain unconvinced that this means any new. I disagree. For most who write to me regarding my essays about the reality of a metaphysical universe, I have but one thing to say: your most powerful, persuasive evidence, namely your own powerful, personal experience, can now be easily and rationally explained, in all its features. No metaphysical explanation is necessary. **Because no metaphysical explanation is required to explain your experience, your “evidence” is no longer evidence of anything metaphysical.** > Please also read (it’s a very short one-page story by Carl Sagan): [http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article\_dragon.htm](http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm) Ok, you got me there. I’d have to stipulate an external cause that we can’t measure or otherwise establish outside of the person having the experience stating that it occured. I understand why this will be diffcult for you to accept, given that by definition if we can’t measure it, it doesn’t exist. I can see why you would think I’m being delusional if I claim the experience is anything other than an artifact of how my brain works. If I claim the event that occured, an event that gave me an experience of an infinit peace and tranquility, an experience of infinit love, while that might sound nice, it is not related to anything measurable and therefore can be categorized as something unrelated to an external reality outside of my brain; it must be a self induced experience. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/194 "2012-01-12T15:49:35Z")
> [@martu](#): > > What is spiritual development? When some rich ghosts show up, buy your property, then raze your neighborhood so they can build a tacky haunted mansion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/195 "2012-01-12T15:50:40Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Ok, you got me there. I’d have to stipulate an external cause that we can’t measure or otherwise establish outside of the person having the experience stating that it occured. I understand why this will be diffcult for you to accept, given that by definition if we can’t measure it, it doesn’t exist. I can see why you would think I’m being delusional if I claim the experience is anything other than an artifact of how my brain works. If I claim the event that occured, an event that gave me an experience of an infinit peace and tranquility, an experience of infinit love, while that might sound nice, it is not related to anything measurable and therefore can be categorized as something unrelated to an external reality outside of my brain; it must be a self induced experience. 1. It is spelled “infinite”. 2. How can you, a finite being with a finite mind, determine that any peace, tranquility or love you might have experienced is infinite? ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/196 "2012-01-12T15:55:04Z")
> [@martu](#): > > What is spiritual development? Simply put, whatever the goal of their spiritual belief is. For most of us it would be learning about the causes of suffering and then learning how to bring about the cessation of suffering in ourselves. But that is a very general goal. After the ecstacy comes the laundry. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/197 "2012-01-12T15:57:15Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Simply put, whatever the goal of their spiritual belief is. For most of us it would be learning about the causes of suffering and then learning how to bring about the cessation of suffering in ourselves. But that is a very general goal. After the ecstacy comes the laundry. So procrastination? The laundry should come first. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/198 "2012-01-12T15:59:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. It is spelled “infinite”. > 2. How can you, a finite being with a finite mind, determine that any peace, tranquility or love you might have experienced is infinite? Yes I am spelling challenged. I don’t determine anything, I experience it and that is how I describe the experience. Just like my spelling, language isn’t a perfect instrument for describing the world, and my experiences in it. It is an approximation, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/199 "2012-01-12T16:00:41Z")
> [@martu](#): > > So procrastination? The laundry should come first. Too literal my friend. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/200 "2012-01-12T16:15:11Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Yes I am spelling challenged. I don’t determine anything, I experience it and that is how I describe the experience. Just like my spelling, language isn’t a perfect instrument for describing the world, and my experiences in it. It is an approximation, I guess. That is one word you really shouldn’t approximate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=11)