# Premiss: "Atheism" is for people who can't handle "Religion". **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199 "2012-01-11T19:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/201 "2012-01-12T16:17:56Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Too literal my friend. That was a facetious reply I admit because, to be honest, I did not understand a word of what you said. Anyway it’s a highjack so I’m happy to let it drop. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/202 "2012-01-12T16:22:58Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > If it turns out the the atheists were always right, nobody gets to gloat in the stillness of the grave, where dirt and worm have their claim. Not necessarily. A God that values intellectual honesty over obedience would reward atheists (who followed the evidence) and punish theists (who believed without it). You may be setting yourself up for eternal damnation, my friend, while all the non-believers wind up gobsmacked in paradise. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/203 "2012-01-12T16:30:37Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > But if death isn’t the end, and I live my life as a follower of Christ, and all my hopes and desires and and expectations are utterly vindicated … 😃 As a great philosopher once said [QUOTE=Homer Simpson] Suppose we’ve chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we’re just making him madder and madder. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/204 "2012-01-12T18:43:42Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I’ll agree with your first statement. But I think you’ll agree that what the atheist is most likely to say is true are the collection of currently accepted scientific theories. Next in line are the possible extensions of those theories or any one of plausible constructs based on those scientific theories. It is very safe ground to stand on, and requires nothing more than to profess an undying believe in what can be physically or mathematically shown to be real or a reasonable extension of that. However, the matter of what is reasonable, is still a matter of judgement in that one has to edit out extensions that seem unreasonable. Now that judgement may be right or may later proven to be wrong, but for the time being, you might believe that a specific extension of a scientific theory is still reasonable until proven otherwise by direct experiment and data collection and of course data interpretation. You can’t get away from making judgment calls or interpretation of what the data really mean, and doing so requires that you rely on currently accepted theories. > > What puzzles me about all this is that we all exist in an uncertain world, where we will admit freely or if pressed, that we don’t have al the answers, but we do have believes about what those answer might be or they might be unknowable. Yet when it comes to debates about religion vs atheism we all act as if we knew with certainty what is real and what isn’t. I’m not arguing for any specific religion here. I’m simple saying that none of us know enough about this Universe to have anything final to say about purpose and meaning, unless what we are stating is our belief about that purpose or meaning, or our believe that there is no purpose or meaning. We don’t have all of the answers and athiests readily admit this. The thing is that thus everything that we have been able to learn about the universe seems indicate that it is based on certain physical laws. So it is reasonable to assume that the other stuff we don’t know about also in some ways relate to physical laws. We could be wrong, and we don’t claim to know the answer to these unknown questions. If all you are saying is “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” Then we would probably agree with you. There is lots of physics and bio-phychology as yet undiscovered. The problem is that religion claims that there are certain answers to these unknown questions, namely that a divine being with characteristics X, Y, and Z is responsible. It is like there is a locked wall safe in an office about which nothing else is known. The theist says that there there is a black size 14 left sneaker which is only laced up half way. The atheist will say, he doesn’t know whats inside, but without any evidence and given all of the other things that are likely to be in there, it is probably not a sneaker. In fact he will go so far as to say, I don’t believe that it is a sneaker, much less black or size 14. Now with certain theists it is even worse in that their claims violate what we already know about the universe. In that case is is like the theist saying there is live elephant inside the safe. In this case the athiest will make a more positive claim that the theist is wrong. I know that there is no elephant in the safe. It could be that the whole fabric of space as understood by the athiest is wrong, but he is willing to discard that possibility out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/205 "2012-01-12T18:56:46Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I don’t know for SURE that He exists. If I did, it would be ordinary mundane knowledge. If my faith is wrong, and there is no God or Devil or survival of consciousness after death, there will be no ultimate vindication of my silly stupid faith. I’ll just cease to exist. I’ll have lived my life according to certain principles that didn’t make any worldly sense. There will be no ultimate reward or punishment, no reckoning, no answering of long-unanswered questions. If death is truly the end, so be it. > > But if death isn’t the end, and I live my life as a follower of Christ, and all my hopes and desires and and expectations are utterly vindicated … 😃 > > If it turns out the the atheists were always right, nobody gets to gloat in the stillness of the grave, where dirt and worm have their claim. You’ve essentially just repeated [Pascal’s Wager](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager) > [@](#): > > Since the existence of God can not be proved (or disproved) through reason, but since in his view there was much to be gained from wagering that God exists (and little to be gained from wagering that God doesn’t exist), a rational person should simply wager that God exists (and live accordingly). ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/206 "2012-01-12T19:38:17Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You’ve essentially just repeated [Pascal’s Wager](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager) It seems I paraphrased Pascal’s Wager without realizing it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/207 "2012-01-12T19:42:22Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > It seems I paraphrased Pascal’s Wager without realizing it. You may then wish to read up on [Flaws with this line of reasoning](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager#Criticism) ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/208 "2012-01-12T19:44:17Z")
People who treat Pascal’s Wager as an insurance against a negative afterlife are ignoring the fact that they’re still affecting how they live life itself. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/209 "2012-01-12T19:49:20Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You may then wish to read up on [Flaws with this line of reasoning](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager#Criticism) Ultimately we all have to wager. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/210 "2012-01-12T19:51:05Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Ultimately we all have to wager. Did you read the link provided? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/211 "2012-01-12T19:51:51Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Ultimately we all have to wager. Not necessarily - feral children who have never heard of any God or Gods could not wager. Neither could children who didn’t reach the cognitive level of being able to wager. Further, our odds are extremely poor - a one in, what, 10,000 shot at picking the right God? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/212 "2012-01-12T19:52:57Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Ultimately we all have to wager. I don’t agree with that attitude, and I wouldn’t call it a wager. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/213 "2012-01-12T19:59:58Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > People who treat Pascal’s Wager as an insurance against a negative afterlife are ignoring the fact that they’re still affecting how they live life itself. I think I understand what you’re saying here. If my wager is that I am destined for heaven as an Elect, then I don’t have to bother with being a good person. In fact, I can be as bad as I wanna be and still avoid the inferno. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/214 "2012-01-12T20:00:59Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I think I understand what you’re saying here. If my wager is that I am destined for heaven as an Elect, then I don’t have to bother with being a good person. In fact, I can be as bad as I wanna be and still avoid the inferno. You don’t have to be a good person regardless of what happens after you die. Either way, you’ll probably piss off a lot people while you’re alive and wind up not too happy with your life. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/215 "2012-01-12T20:06:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t agree with that attitude, and I wouldn’t call it a wager. I won’t retract my statement just because you are the Site Admin. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/216 "2012-01-12T20:07:39Z")
Reply to Buck Godot: Agreed. What you say I think it is very reasonable and pretty much follows the reasoning of what, in general, is used as supporting argument for “why I’m an atheist, or why I’m not a theist”. And yes I do belief there are more things in Heaven and Earth, and it is those things which simply cannot be encapsulated into a mathematical relationship, of which there are more of. I wish we could have this conversation without assuming this more of stuff is a particular God or religious belief. I think it is perfectly rational to do so. It takes nothing away from science to do so. It says simply that my experience of life extends beyond the information and mathematical relationships science provides. In the actual living is where I establish my relationship to the Universe I exist in based on my experience of that Universe. I don’t need to be consicous of the physical rules to help me experience the Universe. My body as a result of existing is in perfect harmony with the rules. My body provides the source of my experiences, which happen to teach me that I am part of a greate whole, that I am part of a greater movement, that I am a part of the Universe that is self-conscious and aware. You can’t reduce that to a specific belief, it is an experience. It may lead many of us to seek some particular religious affiiliation but we certainly all have these experiences, whether or not we do. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/217 "2012-01-12T20:09:11Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > You don’t have to be a good person regardless of what happens after you die. Either way, you’ll probably piss off a lot people while you’re alive and wind up not too happy with your life. That depends on how much of a bastard I turn out to be. If my aim is to piss off a lot people (which it isn’t IRL) I think I’d wind up happy and fulfilled. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/218 "2012-01-12T20:10:27Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > That depends on how much of a bastard I turn out to be. If my aim is to piss off a lot people (which it isn’t IRL) I think I’d wind up happy and fulfilled. Well, try it – see how it turns out ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/219 "2012-01-12T20:10:55Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I think I understand what you’re saying here. If my wager is that I am destined for heaven as an Elect, then I don’t have to bother with being a good person. In fact, I can be as bad as I wanna be and still avoid the inferno. Not only that, and ignoring all the other flaws with this argument, religion itself affects the world – arguably, not for the best. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, there’s an 0.0000000000000000000001% chance that the Norse gods and Valhalla exists, and there’s a 99.9999999999999999999999% chance that nothing happens when you die and no gods exist. Sure, that tiny chance benefits you to live a violent, bloody life and die in battle, taking from the weak, raping and abducting womenfolk, and killing the children of your enemies. Sure, it benefits you if you happen to be right, and once you’re dead it’s the only possible benefit you get, but what happens while you – and everyone else – are alive? That’s, of course, the part of existing that we actually know really occurs. To put it simply, who do you think is more admirable: someone who pursues the truth, or someone who picks a belief system based on selfish reasons? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/220 "2012-01-12T20:11:52Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I won’t retract my statement just because you are the Site Admin. I was posting as a regular poster, not moderating the thread, and I didn’t ask you to retract anything. I said I disagreed with you: I don’t think we’re ultimately wagering on anything (it implies someone’s going to win and someone’s going to lose), it doesn’t reflect the spirit in which people make decisions on these kinds of issues, and it isn’t a competition. Does that clarify things for you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=12)