# Premiss: "Atheism" is for people who can't handle "Religion". **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199 "2012-01-11T19:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/221 "2012-01-12T20:13:16Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > Well, try it – see how it turns out I intend to. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/222 "2012-01-12T20:14:14Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > People who treat Pascal’s Wager as an insurance against a negative afterlife are ignoring the fact that they’re still affecting how they live life itself. Also the fact that the gods hate a smartass. At least the Discworld ones do 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/223 "2012-01-12T20:25:39Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > No I didn’t have to exist (although I’m happy that I do). I’m not clear on what basis you exclude self-conscious life from being inevitable, yet are willing to concede that planets are inevitable. Isn’t it fairly certain that given the predominance of solar systems across the Universe that chances are greater that life will develop simply because this Universe is such that it supports such an outcome? You give me the starting conditions of this Universe plus a few billion years of matter and energy interacting and I’ll bet life will sooner or later pop up and develop more or less along the lines that it has on our planet. I didn’t exclude it. I rather think that there is lots of conscious life out there. However, as far as that goes, we only have one example. We now have tons of examples of star systems with planets. It is good to distinguish between things you think are true and things the evidence points to. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/224 "2012-01-12T20:31:26Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I’m game, what are those explanations? > **[Michael Persinger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Persinger)** > > TVO (Ontario) Best Lecturer 2007 > Laurentian University Research Excellence Award 1989 > Michael A. Persinger (June 26, 1945 – August 14, 2018) was an American-Canadian professor of psychology at Laurentian University, a position he had held from 1971 until his death in 2018. His best-known hypotheses include the temporal lobes of the human brain as the central correlate for mystical experiences, subtle changes in geomagnetic activity as mediators of parapsychological phenomena, the tectonic strain... > **[Neuroscience of religion | Neuropsychology and Neuroimaging](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotheology#Neuropsychology_and_Neuroimaging)** > > The first researcher to note and catalog the abnormal experiences associated with temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE) was neurologist Norman Geschwind, who noted a set of religious behavioral traits associated with TLE seizures. These include hypergraphia, hyperreligiosity, reduced sexual interest, fainting spells, and pedantism, often collectively ascribed to a condition known as Geschwind syndrome. > Vilayanur S. Ramachandran explored the neural basis of the hyperreligiosity seen in TLE using the galva... Summary–there have been preliminary experiments using different methods by different researchers that purport to create artificially, technologically induced spiritual/religious experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/225 "2012-01-12T20:35:42Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Ultimately we all have to wager. How odd that theists with one breath say that God is too complex to understand and with the next treat him like a slot machine. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/226 "2012-01-12T20:37:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > How odd that theists with one breath say that God is too complex to understand and with the next treat him like a slot machine. Even if I did treat God like a slot-machine, how would you know? You’re not privy to my relationship with God. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/227 "2012-01-12T20:39:26Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Even if I did treat God like a slot-machine, how would you know? You’re not privy to my relationship with God. Er, you just said upthread “ultimately we all have to wager”. So we are privy to it, because you told us. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/228 "2012-01-12T20:41:20Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Even if I did treat God like a slot-machine, how would you know? You’re not privy to my relationship with God. You’ve got a point there. You could be lying through your teeth about what you believe and don’t believe, and we wouldn’t know the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/229 "2012-01-12T20:53:52Z")
So is there a test to distinguish a true believer from a flat-out liar? I only ask because this may prove useful, if it exists. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/230 "2012-01-12T20:57:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So is there a test to distinguish a true believer from a flat-out liar? I only ask because this may prove useful, if it exists. Poe’s Law would suggest no, unless the liar was sufficiently transparent. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/231 "2012-01-12T21:01:05Z")
Darn. Life would be so much easier if when we’re confronted with 5,000 competing religions, each claiming to be the “true” one, we could readily weed out the ones based on lies. Or we could assume they _all_ are, until proven otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/232 "2012-01-12T21:10:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I didn’t exclude it. I rather think that there is lots of conscious life out there. However, as far as that goes, we only have one example. We now have tons of examples of star systems with planets. > It is good to distinguish between things you think are true and things the evidence points to. Sorry, but I still don’t get the distinction you are making between unconscious matter and self-conscious matter with respect to the Universe as a whole. Back to basics: The totality of particles and forces which determine the interaction is an inevitable outcome of the starting conditions of this Universe Agreed? Then why doesn’t it follow that everything which flows from that is also inevitable? How does the fact that we only know of conscious life on earth invalidate this? Isn’t it considered very likely that given the billions and billions of stars with, you know, lots of planets, supports the strong likelyhood of life emerging in several places in the Universe rather than not. And doesn’t the fact that life on earth evolved self-awareness, so often in so many different species, mean that there is a significant benefit to being aware of being alive? Why is that so more special than accepting as obious that planets in this Universe will tend to be round, rather than square? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/233 "2012-01-12T21:18:40Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Reply to Buck Godot: > . > . > . > . Great! have fun with that. Given that you aren’t trying to convert anyone or say that this is the only way to believe or that laws should be changed to reflect this world view I doubt that any atheist would really complain one way or another about this. In another thread I expressed the following belief which sounds very similar to yours and got nary a peep of complaint. > [@Question on the meaning of Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-meaning-of-life/536933/78): > > I’m largely an atheist, but have developed the following world view which, whether or not its accurate, seems to work pretty well in its ability to give me a fulfilling life. > > I imagine the whole universe like a fixed tapestry in space/time. The notions of past and future are largely irrelevant. The fact that my 13th birthday happened is fixed in the tapestry and is no less real now than it was then. My goal in life is to make the tapestry as pretty as possible over the 80 odd years I have that I can influence its shape. I do this by trying to maximize the happiness of those who I can influence, myself included. Based on this view I would probably take you up on your 6-month memory free holiday as my pleasure would also be recorded in space/time regardless of whether I remember it. I don’t fear death because my life will stand on its own as it is/was. > > When I’m feeling particularly philosophical, I believe (again without proof, but just for the fun of it) that my consciousness is basically the attention of the universe to this particular point in the space/time framework, and that this attention is also displayed in all other people (maybe animals and possibly even rocks?), and so by assisting in their happiness I assisting my own as well. > > This provides me with a pretty strong basis for morality, and gives my life meaning without resorting to a divine god,unless you view god as universal attention in which case its pretty impersonal. I may be totally off base but if it makes me feel good, do good, and hurts no one else then who can complain. I don’t think atheists have that much of a beef with agnostic theists as long as they don’t claim to have that they have evidence that their belief is correct and so should be held by others. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/234 "2012-01-12T21:42:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So is there a test to distinguish a true believer from a flat-out liar? I only ask because this may prove useful, if it exists. There is a test, and it’s very easy to administer. All you have to do is check to see if the person’s words and actions match up. A true disciple lives after God in the dark, where there’s no one around to see the good things he does. A false disciple lives after God only when it makes him look good, when the lights are on and the cameras are rolling. A false disciple forgets his Master in private but puts on a show of piety when in the company of admirers. A true disciple doesn’t care about personal glory. A false disciple craves it. A true disciple exalts others in his Master’s name. A false disciple uses his Master’s name to tear others down. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/235 "2012-01-12T21:44:46Z")
Well, if there’s no-one around to see, how do we _know_ what the disciple is doing after dark? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/236 "2012-01-12T21:55:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if there’s no-one around to see, how do we _know_ what the disciple is doing after dark? Wait, I know this one. You lock him in a box with a radioactive isotope and a gun that will fire when the isotope decays… ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/237 "2012-01-12T21:58:24Z")
And this is where the atheist wins - we have nothing to sell - nothing to gain by our ‘belief’ (as raindog would have it) - therefore we never have to lie or hedge our bets on it. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/238 "2012-01-12T21:59:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if there’s no-one around to see, how do we _know_ what the disciple is doing after dark? Because we find out about it after the fact, in the newspaper or on TV. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/239 "2012-01-12T22:10:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So is there a test to distinguish a true believer from a flat-out liar? I only ask because this may prove useful, if it exists. Not really. You’d have to have access to their private mental states, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/240 "2012-01-12T22:12:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Wait, I know this one. You lock him in a box with a radioactive isotope and a gun that will fire when the isotope decays… Then the disciple would be phony and genuine at the same time. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=13)