# Premiss: "Atheism" is for people who can't handle "Religion". **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199 "2012-01-11T19:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/301 "2012-01-13T19:59:59Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > The point is still the same one I made in the original reply way back: that consciousness is a property of this Universe as much as any other phsyical property is. Hence my concern that, let’s say, Planets occuring isn’t any less or more remarkable (inevitable?) than consciousness occuring. > > I suppose the deeper belief is that this Universe is disposed to create consciousness. Not a theory, but a plausible belief. We know that the properties of the universe are the kind that allow for life. We don’t know yet how probable life really is. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/302 "2012-01-13T20:03:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is that the one that finishes, “…and that’s when I discovered that God had been riding my back the entire time.”? [Footprints In the Sand](http://www.amandashome.com/footprints.html) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/303 "2012-01-13T20:15:38Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > [Footprints In the Sand](http://www.amandashome.com/footprints.html) Golly, I’ve never seen _that_ before-how deep and profound! No, wait-I think I _have_ seen that before. On postcards. On billboards. In my email. Thirty times a day on my Facebook page. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/304 "2012-01-13T20:22:14Z")
For what it’s worth, Czar, I thought your alternate punchline was chuckle-worthy and I gave some thought to jiggering the story slightly to make it work. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/305 "2012-01-13T20:24:37Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > The point is still the same one I made in the original reply way back: that consciousness is a property of this Universe as much as any other phsyical property is. Hence my concern that, let’s say, Planets occuring isn’t any less or more remarkable (inevitable?) than consciousness occuring. Consciousness, as far as we know, is a property of certain tiny elements of the universe - about 6.5 billion of them - not the universe as a whole. That’s not to say it’s impossible, as we know that consciousness can emerge from a sufficiently complex system. I can’t begin to think what would constitute a test for consciousness of the universe as a whole, though! To your second point, it appears that consciousness is more remarkable than planetary formation, as it requires a far more complex system to be in place. There’s no reason to think that increasing complexity is inevitable - in fact, entropy suggests the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/306 "2012-01-13T20:28:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > For what it’s worth, Czar, I thought your alternate punchline was chuckle-worthy and I gave some thought to jiggering the story slightly to make it work. It completely subverted the meaning of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/307 "2012-01-13T20:29:53Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > It completely subverted the meaning of the story. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/308 "2012-01-13T20:35:46Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > It completely subverted the meaning of the story. That’s why it was funny. He’s saying that instead of God carrying the speaker, he or she got through the adversity on his or her own, and religion did nothing but weigh them down and make it harder. In addition to being funny (a little, at least) it’s also a fair representation of reality. If you have any other jokes that are confusing or upsetting you, please feel free to approach me in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/309 "2012-01-13T20:56:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s why it was funny. > > He’s saying that instead of God carrying the speaker, he or she got through the adversity on his or her own, and religion did nothing but weigh them down and make it harder. > > In addition to being funny (a little, at least) it’s also a fair representation of reality. > > If you have any other jokes that are confusing or upsetting you, please feel free to approach me in the future. I’m not as thin-skinned as all that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/310 "2012-01-13T21:03:41Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I’m not as thin-skinned as all that. Nobody’s accusing you of being thin-skinned. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/311 "2012-01-13T21:07:09Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I’m not as thin-skinned as all that. I didn’t call you thin-skinned. I explained a joke that you couldn’t understand. Although, you have yet to change any of your misconceptions in this thread, so I might be tilting at windmills here. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/312 "2012-01-13T21:11:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What’s your point? No point. I just made an observation. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/313 "2012-01-13T21:25:33Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > No point. I just made an observation. You made an observation. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/314 "2012-01-13T23:34:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Consciousness, as far as we know, is a property of certain tiny elements of the universe - about 6.5 billion of them - not the universe as a whole. That’s not to say it’s impossible, as we know that consciousness can emerge from a sufficiently complex system. I can’t begin to think what would constitute a test for consciousness of the universe as a whole, though! > > To your second point, it appears that consciousness is more remarkable than planetary formation, as it requires a far more complex system to be in place. There’s no reason to think that increasing complexity is inevitable - in fact, entropy suggests the opposite. Ok, this is where we are going to diverge in a big way. I have a difficulty separating the bits and pieces that make up the Universe from the Universe. To me they are one and the same. Yes indeed, the Universe wouldn’t be what it is today without me in in it, or for that matter, if any of the other bits and pieces went missing. I think there is tendency to define an artificial demarker between you thinking about the Universe as somehow being special actiivity that has nothing to do with the Universe, as in: is not a property of the Universe. I don’t believe that is a real distinction. I don’t actually think consciousness is more remarkable than any other thing in the Universe. The Universe is as complex as any part of it needs to be to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/315 "2012-01-13T23:35:51Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You made an observation. He made an observation, but he had no point. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/316 "2012-01-14T00:19:49Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Ok, this is where we are going to diverge in a big way. I have a difficulty separating the bits and pieces that make up the Universe from the Universe. To me they are one and the same. Yes indeed, the Universe wouldn’t be what it is today without me in in it, or for that matter, if any of the other bits and pieces went missing. I think there is tendency to define an artificial demarker between you thinking about the Universe as somehow being special actiivity that has nothing to do with the Universe, as in: is not a property of the Universe. I don’t believe that is a real distinction. > > I don’t actually think consciousness is more remarkable than any other thing in the Universe. The Universe is as complex as any part of it needs to be to exist. Consciousness is a property of me just as red is a property of the dvd case I’m looking at now. The universe is no more necessarily red than it is necessarily conscious. In fact, the universe isn’t red at all - it’s [beige](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_latte). It’s nothing to do with me being special. Any system, from an atom to a galaxy, is to a certain extent seperate and defined, and may well have properties that the universe as a whole does not. ---
**Author:** ![Batsinma\_Belfry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@Batsinma\_Belfry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batsinma_Belfry)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/317 "2012-01-14T07:56:07Z")
“Religion” is for people who can’t handle the thought of not having a mythical granddaddy, keep them from fucking up their life. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/318 "2012-01-14T15:06:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Any system, from an atom to a galaxy, is to a certain extent seperate and defined, and may well have properties that the universe as a whole does not. Just think of the Universe as that one special unique set, the set that contains all things. You change the set if you take out one thing. It’s now a different type of set of all things. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/319 "2012-01-14T16:47:08Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Just think of the Universe as that one special unique set, the set that contains all things. You change the set if you take out one thing. It’s now a different type of set of all things. That is true, and has nothing to do with what I posted. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/320 "2012-01-14T23:04:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That is true, and has nothing to do with what I posted. I think it has a lot to do with the underlying assumptions that makes your reply possibly in the first place and make it sound reasonable. However, the reality we live in and are a part of is a totality not a collection of parts that somehow found themselves in the same Universe . Everything in this Universe is an integral aspect of it. When we try to understand the totality of the Universe, we can’t simply speak of the parts as being present but separated from it without changing both the significance and meaning of the parts and the whole. Once you’ve taken the watch apart, you must put it back together or you have no watch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=15)