# Premiss: "Atheism" is for people who can't handle "Religion". **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199 "2012-01-11T19:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/41 "2012-01-11T21:25:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If I had to pick one reason I’m an atheist, I’d say it’s because of the idea of a god who made people in his own image. The longer I thought about that idea, the more obvious it was that it was just something people made up. There are a lot of other reasons, but I’m not uncomfortable with the idea that the universe is infite or that the world won’t end with some kind of final judgment, and I don’t believe that eventually we’ll be able to explain all human interactions in terms of math or physics. True, I have a problem with that as well. But I’m not arguing for the literal truth of any specific religious dogma. I agree it is allegorical, I agree it is myth, but I disagree that it is delusional to feel and experience that there is more to existence in this world than meets the literal eye. I think there is a reason we have spiritual experiences and why we feel there is a greater something to existence. We simply express these experiences in our religious dogma in culturally constrained images. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/42 "2012-01-11T21:26:29Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I fnd the notion that this meaningless world for no purpose creates living self-conscious beings ad nauseum … to be remarkable and inconsistent with everything else we assume to be scientifically true and rational. Clause removed for clarity. Would you care to elucidate? Why do you think the evolution of self-conscious beings is inconsistent with the rest of science? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/43 "2012-01-11T21:26:45Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Wrong. > > Atheism is the _belief_ that there is no God; it is the **affirmative position that no God exists.** > > A “lack of belief in a god or gods” describes **agnosticism** First of all, thinks for dictating to us what we believe. I think all Christians believe that Jesus was a space alien, and if you object you are just in denial. You don’t seem to understand the difference between belief and statement of fact. I can lack belief in any god (not just your God) and I can also believe that no Gods exist without claiming to know that no Gods exist - which is an absurd belief, given that there are so many possible gods, and even so many versions of the Western God. What agnosticism really means has been stated. I’ve read Huxley, have you? In any case, your ignorance of the atheist position is very clear. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/44 "2012-01-11T21:28:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If I had to pick one reason I’m an atheist, I’d say it’s because of the idea of a god who made people in his own image. This. I can kind of understand why people might believe in some sort of amorphous “higher consciousness” or whatever, but an anthropomorphic god who concerns himself primarily with humankind is an idea so absurdly and baldly narcissistic that I can’t believe that anyone takes it seriously. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/45 "2012-01-11T21:30:53Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Seriously? > > Don’t we have this discussion every week? > > Atheism is an answer to a question of **belief**. > > Agnosticism is an answer to a question about **knowledge**. > > They are not mutually exclusive. > > If someone asks: Do you believe in God? > > It’s either a yes or a no. Saying ‘I don’t know’ **doesn’t answer that question**. > > One could be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist (fideist). > > Check [out this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism#Types_of_agnosticism): Words have no _inherent_ meaning. None. We attach meaning to them. There good examples of how words have evolved over time where a shared meaning can change and be somewhat ubiquitous; like “gay.” Even words like “nigger” can mean different things to different people. I would imagine that the word nigger in the mouth of David Duke would have a different meaning that from, say, Notorious B.I.G. In any event, you are free to re-define atheism in any way you see fit, and attach any _meaning_ you’d like. Never mind the :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/46 "2012-01-11T21:30:54Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > Disagree. > > I am atheist not because I can’t handle religion, but because I don’t see the need for religion in my life. I understand science well enough to know how the universe can operate without a governing deity and the logical/epistemological problems with “God” in the first place. I can live a full, happy life without feeling like I am a slave to hazy morals and rules, too. Thanks, if I may piggyback on this and say, in the ineffable lingo of internet, +1. Or eleventy. The original post shows serious signs of non sequitur and sloppy “thinking”. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/47 "2012-01-11T21:32:09Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Words have no _inherent_ meaning. None. > > We attach meaning to them. There good examples of how words have evolved over time where a shared meaning can change and be somewhat ubiquitous; like “gay.” Even words like “nigger” can mean different things to different people. I would imagine that the word nigger in the mouth of David Duke would have a different meaning that from, say, Notorious B.I.G. > > **In any event, you are free to re-define atheism in any way you see fit, and attach any _meaning_ you’d like.** > > Never mind the :dubious: Um… That’s great. You take your own advice as well. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/48 "2012-01-11T21:32:57Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I agree it is allegorical, I agree it is myth, but I disagree that it is delusional to feel and experience that there is more to existence in this world than meets the literal eye. I think there is a reason we have spiritual experiences and why we feel there is a greater something to existence. I think that’s mostly the result of the structure of our brains and our own feeling that our lives need to be important and meaningful. I’m confused about where your views on atheism come from. “The notion that the world we exist in is infinit and essentially un-fathomable by us puny humans” is a better description of the appeal of religion than atheism, and it has nothing at all to do with the idea that one day we’ll know everything. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/49 "2012-01-11T21:33:37Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I fnd the notion that this meaningless world for no purpose creates living self-conscious beings ad nauseum, and we are led to believe there must be many more earth type planets out there, at least in this universe, to be remarkable and inconsistent with everything else we assume to be scientifically true and rational. > > By definition the rules that govern matter and energy in this Universe are inevitable given the starting conditions. Self-concsiously aware beings must also be inevitable, given the starting conditions. Self-consciously aware, religious beings, are one of the products of the underlyng laws of this Universe. Why would you say it is delusional? Why is it inconsistent? We know how big our observable universe is. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/17jymDn0W6U/maxresdefault.jpg "The Known Universe by AMNH #datavisualization") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U) Once you really intuit how huge this place is… how many different galaxies there are, how many stars there are, how many planets exist… how many different ways you can arrange them, compose them, etc. It’s almost impossible to imagine that you WOULDN’T get other Earth-like planets undergoing similar processes of abiogenesis/evolution/etc. In many cases, we discover plenty of Earth-like planets right here in our own galaxy. Even though they’re lightyears away, that’s peanuts compared to how massively VAST the universe is. We’ve only really been able to look at a glass of water when we’ve got an entire ocean to explore. As for sentient beings being “determined” out of starting conditions of the universe, I see this as having no real relevance to the question of delusion. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/50 "2012-01-11T21:34:24Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Ok, but that is simply your belief about the universe, given our current scientific understanding of it and your belief about what the purpose of Religion is? > > I fnd the notion that this meaningless world for no purpose creates living self-conscious beings ad nauseum, and we are led to believe there must be many more earth type planets out there, at least in this universe, to be remarkable and inconsistent with everything else we assume to be scientifically true and rational. > > By definition the rules that govern matter and energy in this Universe are inevitable given the starting conditions. Self-concsiously aware beings must also be inevitable, given the starting conditions. Self-consciously aware, religious beings, are one of the products of the underlyng laws of this Universe. Why would you say it is delusional? Why are planets inconsistent with science? If there is one, why not lots? If planets got formed by purely natural processes, that is what you’d expect. If a God created our planet, then creating other ones would be wasteful. Ditto for the development of intelligence. Intelligence seems to have evolutionary advantages, so somewhat more intelligent species get selected for. (The jury is still out on whether being as intelligent as we are is a dead end.) Given that, the rise of intelligence to the level of being self aware is perfectly plausible, if not inevitable. If by religious beings you mean beings who believe in supernatural entities, that might be evolutionary advantageous also. But that beings believe in supernatural things doesn’t mean that supernatural things actually exist. Our ancestors believed in lots of stuff we know are false. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/51 "2012-01-11T21:35:01Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Wrong. > > Atheism is the _belief_ that there is no God; it is the **affirmative position that no God exists.** > > A “lack of belief in a god or gods” describes **agnosticism** Wow, I quoted this before you changed the underlined atheism to agnosticism. Look, if you were arguing with someone about the best sort of car to own, and they told you that all Toyota cars move by using thrust emitted by their mufflers, would you think that person can intelligently tell you anything about cars? Because your inept ideas about atheism and agnosticism are as wrong as Toyotas using rocket thrust to drive. Feel free to start [here](http://atheistpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/eU3bj.jpg). And in the future, try to learn about a subject before you tell other people they are wrong. It’s only polite. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/52 "2012-01-11T21:39:54Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > We need to be spiritual to make sense of our existence and know and feel that we are a part of, not apart from, the universe we live in, that can and does lead to religion. Really? Because from what I know of science, my entire body is made up of carbon atoms that were created in stellar fusion. I feel much more a part of the universe than someone who was created by some all-powerful deity. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/53 "2012-01-11T21:40:47Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Atheism is an escape hatch for those of us who are uncomfortable with the notion that the world we exist in is infinit and essentially un-fathomable by us puny humans. In Atheism we can hide our fears behind the belief that eventually all questions can be defined in mathematical relationships and a well stacked table of fundamental particles and forces. The fact that we aren’t there yet is simply because we’ve just barely begun the enterprise, but someday we will fathom our existence in every possible detail, leaving no question unanswered, complete masters of our existence and our future. > > Agree/Disagree ? I’ll go one further and say it’s more likely people don’t want to admit that human reason is limited and that there are unknowns in the universe. Humans, after all, tend to fear the unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/54 "2012-01-11T21:41:20Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Words have no _inherent_ meaning. None. This objection is also meaningless. I guess that’s kind of ironic. We come to a consensus on what words mean. If we didn’t, it would be impossible to communicate. The meanings of words change and people have disagreements about what words mean, and the meaning of a word is not inherent in its sound. But that doesn’t mean every word means anything you want it to. If you take that attitude, you’ll have a lot of trouble communicating with other people because they won’t know what you’re saying. > [@](#): > > Even words like “nigger” can mean different things to different people. I would imagine that the word nigger in the mouth of David Duke would have a different meaning that from, say, Notorious B.I.G. What you’re actually saying here is that context affects how people perceive what they’re hearing, and that’s true. But your basic point is wrong no matter how many excessive capitals you use. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/55 "2012-01-11T21:42:17Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Words have no _inherent_ meaning. None. > > … > > In any event, you are free to re-define atheism in any way you see fit, and attach any _meaning_ you’d like. Actually, it seems that pretty much everyone is in agreement about what the word “atheism” actually means. We did not re-define it, you did. And using a really big font to say how “wrong” we all are does not seem to help your case. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/56 "2012-01-11T21:43:29Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’ll go one further and say it’s more like people don’t want to admit that human reason is limited and that there are unknowns in the universe. Humans, after all, tend to fear the unknown. No atheist I know of thinks we know everything about the universe. Mind you, that religion just \*pretends \*to know answers, it doesn’t actually know anything supernatural at all. You can pretend a safe you found is full of diamonds, but that doesn’t change what is actually in there. Just like the nonsense lies of religion don’t actually change what happens to you after you die. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/57 "2012-01-11T21:45:50Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Clause removed for clarity. > > Would you care to elucidate? Why do you think the evolution of self-conscious beings is inconsistent with the rest of science? I meant the notion that the evolution of self-conscious being is a meaningless accident and could have just as easily not happened. If we believe that our physical laws are such as they are for the given starting conditions then you can’t very well argue that everything else that is in this Universe is just accidental. Everything relates back to the same starting conditions. Or, put another way: self-conscious beings exist in this Universe because that’s one of the properties of this Universe. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/58 "2012-01-11T21:49:56Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I meant the notion that the evolution of self-conscious being is a meaningless accident and could have just as easily not happened. If we believe that our physical laws are such as they are for the given starting conditions then you can’t very well argue that everything else that is in this Universe is just accidental. Everything relates back to the same starting conditions. Or, put another way: self-conscious beings exist in this Universe because that’s one of the properties of this Universe. No, if you have a six sided die it doesn’t mean you must roll a 6. The universe just had to have the \*possibility \*for conscious life. If it didn’t we wouldn’t be talking about it. If could have had the possibility, but never had it happen. Just like you can roll a 3 on that die, even though the possibility for a 6 is there. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/59 "2012-01-11T21:52:39Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > If we believe that our physical laws are such as they are for the given starting conditions then you can’t very well argue that everything else that is in this Universe is just accidental. You certainly can. I don’t think it would be possible to prove that the starting conditions of the universe _had_ to produce any particular outcome, and the idea that they had to produce conscious beings reeks of inflated self-importance. Of course the universe could exist without us. There are enormous regions of space with essentially nothing in them, and I haven’t heard any complaints. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/60 "2012-01-11T21:54:22Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No atheist I know of thinks we know everything about the universe. I’ve ready plenty of comments on this board which amount to “we might not know now but scientific advancement will allow us to know it sometime in the future”. I’ve yet to see any atheist admit that there are limits to human reasoning and that humans _might_ (not even saying we will) not be able to understand or even know everything about the universe no matter how much time we’re afforded to do so and no matter how advanced we might become. > [@](#): > > Mind you, that religion just \*pretends \*to know answers, it doesn’t actually know anything supernatural at all. Yeah, I’ll shift the burden of proof a little and ask how you know this? > [@](#): > > You can pretend a safe you found is full of diamonds, but that doesn’t change what is actually in there. Just like the nonsense lies of religion don’t actually change what happens to you after you die. The only way to know what’s in the safe is to open it up. Have you opened up the proverbial “safe” and found that religion is a nonsense of lies? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=4)