# Premiss: "Atheism" is for people who can't handle "Religion". **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199 "2012-01-11T19:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/61 "2012-01-11T22:00:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > “The notion that the world we exist in is infinit and essentially un-fathomable by us puny humans” is a better description of the appeal of religion than atheism, and it has nothing at all to do with the idea that one day we’ll know everything. I think Atheism is as much pure belief (delusional if you will) as any other religious dogma. I wouldn’t say the same for those who are agnostic on the matter. I think if we are shooting for intellectual rigour, we would have to agree we simply don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/62 "2012-01-11T22:01:56Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > The only way to know what’s in the safe is to open it up. Have you opened up the proverbial “safe” and found that religion is a nonsense of lies? Plenty of times, absolutely. We’ve done it for years now as technology and science push God into an ever-receding pocket of ignorance. Even if you can’t open the safe, it doesn’t mean you know what’s in there, either. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/63 "2012-01-11T22:02:30Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I think Atheism is as much pure belief (delusional if you will) as any other religious dogma. I wouldn’t say the same for those who are agnostic on the matter. I think if we are shooting for intellectual rigour, we would have to agree we simply don’t know. Atheism doesn’t require affirmative belief, so “we don’t know” is not inconsistent with atheism. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/64 "2012-01-11T22:03:08Z")
mishagoe: Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy? No? You must be delusional! PS: read what I said earlier about agnosticism. Most atheists are also agnostic. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/65 "2012-01-11T22:03:58Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’ve yet to see any atheist admit that there are limits to human reasoning and that humans _might_ (not even saying we will) not be able to understand or even know everything about the universe no matter how much time we’re afforded to do so and no matter how advanced we might become. And if you’ve never seen it, it must not exist. So explain this god thing, again? ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/66 "2012-01-11T22:04:45Z")
40 proofs of God’s existence: [40 Proofs of God's Existence - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh1sotIUf3I) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/67 "2012-01-11T22:08:48Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’ve ready plenty of comments on this board which amount to “we might not know now but scientific advancement will allow us to know it sometime in the future”. I’ve yet to see any atheist admit that there are limits to human reasoning and that humans _might_ (not even saying we will) not be able to understand or even know everything about the universe no matter how much time we’re afforded to do so and no matter how advanced we might become. Maybe you aren’t looking hard enough. Science assumes that we can’t know a lot of things, [for instance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle). No scientist I know of thinks we’ll ever have a time viewer or anything like that. So no watching Carthage or learning how to pronounce ancient Egyptian with an Alexandrian accent. There is a lot we don’t know and never will know. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I’ll shift the burden of proof a little and ask how you know this? Because there has never been evidence of a supernatural event. Prayer does nothing, for instance. > [@](#): > > The only way to know what’s in the safe is to open it up. Have you opened up the proverbial “safe” and found that religion is a nonsense of lies? I was religious for the first twelve years or so of my life. But when I became a man, I put away childish things. I have read the bible, and it is so utterly obviously the rantings of a particularly ignorant group of stinking bronze-age goat-herders it does not make a compelling argument. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/68 "2012-01-11T22:12:46Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because there has never been evidence of a supernatural event. No evidence that you might accept, perhaps? Or is this an absolute statement of fact? ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/69 "2012-01-11T22:13:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You certainly can. I don’t think it would be possible to prove that the starting conditions of the universe _had_ to produce any particular outcome, and the idea that they had to produce conscious beings reeks of inflated self-importance. Of course the universe could exist without us. There are enormous regions of space with essentially nothing in them, and I haven’t heard any complaints. 😉 Of course I can prove it: self-consious beings exist. Stating that is no more self-important than to state: planets exist and are an outcome of the starting conditions. Why should self-conscious being be any less or more priveledged to exist than planets? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/70 "2012-01-11T22:14:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No evidence that you might accept, perhaps? Or is this an absolute statement of fact? Provide the evidence and we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/71 "2012-01-11T22:14:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Atheism doesn’t require affirmative belief, so “we don’t know” is not inconsistent with atheism. The ghost of DtC lives on. In MB atheism “There is no proof of a God”, and “There is no God” are qualitatively the same statement. Will any of you own up to your faith? _Any of you?_ ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/72 "2012-01-11T22:17:44Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No evidence that you might accept, perhaps? Or is this an absolute statement of fact? Of course there has been evidence. That is MB atheism confusion; the type of confusion that thinks that “evidence” and “proof” are synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/73 "2012-01-11T22:17:44Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Of course I can prove it: self-consious beings exist. Stating that is no more self-important than to state: planets exist and are an outcome of the starting conditions. Why should self-conscious being be any less or more priveledged to exist than planets? Read my post above. There is no reason that something possible has to happen. It’s possible you’ll have an aneurysm and die as you’re reading \*this \*word. It was possible, but it didn’t happen. We don’t have enough information to know how likely life is. Which is where science is different than religion. Religion would just make up an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/74 "2012-01-11T22:18:04Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Why should self-conscious being be any less or more priveledged to exist than planets? Privilege is a human concept that doesn’t factor into it. It seems to me that as you move from the largest scale down to the smallest, there’s more and more random chance involved. There would be no life on earth if it was a bit closer to the sun or a little farther from it, or if its composition was a little different. Just because something turned out one way doesn’t mean it couldn’t have possibly turned out any other way. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/75 "2012-01-11T22:18:35Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > mishagoe: Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy? No? You must be delusional! > > PS: read what I said earlier about agnosticism. Most atheists are also agnostic. Yes I am delusional regarding the Tooth Fairy. Since most atheists are also agnostic then no need to classify anyone with a different belief as delusional. I am also delusional about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. I’m not a perfectly rigorous intellectual. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/76 "2012-01-11T22:18:45Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Of course there has been evidence. That is MB atheism confusion; the type of confusion that thinks that “evidence” and “proof” are synonyms. What evidence in particular? Note, feeling extra-special when you see a sunset will not be considered evidence for this purpose. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/77 "2012-01-11T22:20:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Privilege is a human concept that doesn’t factor into it. It seems to me that as you move from the largest scale down to the smallest, there’s more and more random chance involved. There would be no life on earth if it was a bit closer to the sun or a little farther from it, or if its composition was a little different. Just because something turned out one way doesn’t mean it couldn’t have possibly turned out any other way. True, but that is only important for us earthlings I would argue there is bound to be life somewhere in the Universe. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/78 "2012-01-11T22:24:38Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > In MB atheism “There is no proof of a God”, and “There is no God” are qualitatively the same statement. I didn’t make either statement, but OK. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/79 "2012-01-11T22:24:49Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No evidence that you might accept, perhaps? Or is this an absolute statement of fact? It’s as close to absolute as you can get. Speaking of which, and since there’s already been attempts to custom design word definitions in this thread, I’ll say that I regard “agnosticism” as code for “can’t admit that atheism is obviously the truth”. People don’t take “agnostic” positions on anything unless they are trying to defend something obviously false, like religion. You don’t see adults using agnosticism as a defense for believing in Santa Claus. The evidence is overwhelmingly against the claims of the various religions of the world even being _possible_, much less true; and if it was treated like any normal belief that means “religion is false” would be perfectly acceptable. Instead for religion we are supposed to apply a standard of knowledge that can only be achieved in pure mathematics. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/80 "2012-01-11T22:35:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I didn’t make either statement, but OK. But that statement is made repeatedly, and often; both implicitly and by association. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=5)