# Premiss: "Atheism" is for people who can't handle "Religion". **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199 "2012-01-11T19:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/141 "2012-01-12T04:06:03Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > What puzzles me about all this is that we all exist in an uncertain world, where we will admit freely or if pressed, that we don’t have al the answers, but we do have believes about what those answer might be or they might be unknowable. Yet when it comes to debates about religion vs atheism we all act as if we knew with certainty what is real and what isn’t. I make no distinction whatsoever between religious and non-religious claims about the nature of the universe. I consider ALL statements about reality to be provisional. For example, I have strong evidence that I’m lying on the couch in my living room typing on my laptop. However, I can’t PROVE that this hypothesis is true. I might in fact be a hallucinating brain in a jar on Mars. However, if my wife texts me and asks me where I am, I’m not going to text back “I’m not sure! I can’t prove where I am!” No, I’ll tell her that I’m lying on the couch in the living room typing on my laptop. I state that as a fact, because really, all any fact is is a very well-supported hypothesis about reality. By the same token, if my wife texts me and asks me if God exists, I’ll text back “No, he doesn’t!” Not because I have absolute proof, but because the non-existence of God is a also very well-supported hypothesis. (In fact, I’d be LESS surprised to discover that I’m a brain in a jar, than to discover that God exists. Keeping a brain alive in a jar doesn’t seem that scientifically implausible, while the existence of God would require large swaths of what we know about the universe to be incorrect.) ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/142 "2012-01-12T04:11:22Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I’m game, what are those explanations? It depends on the person’s experience. Usually though it can be broken down into some sort of stimuli that gets misattributed, in the most general sense. It’s a pretty broad question. My point though is that you’ll always hear stories of people praying and having great things happen, or dreams that depict real-life events before they happen, or anecdotes about seeing the ghosts of loved ones, or hear voices from beyond, or have an out-of-body experience, or visit Heaven, blah blah blah. But these are all well known errors. Basically, anything you can designate a “spiritual experience” is much more likely to be explainable through science – the mere fact that we are human. We understand very well the various follies of the human brain and its susceptibility to hallucination and delusion and how it fills in gaps to make sense of the world. We see it all the time in neuroscience. The study of eyewitness testimony is a good example of how feeble human perception and memory recall really is. The ultimate weakness of spiritual experience is that it’s not reproducible evidence. If you come to me and tell me you had a connection with God, it means nothing to me. I can’t verify it for myself, unlike science, which is true for everyone and universally verifiable. I have to basically take you at your word, even though there is a mountain of evidence suggesting that you probably misattributed a particular experience/stimuli and thought it was “spiritual.” It’s like how you can look back at ancient Greece and read stories of people who had religious experiences with Zeus, or people here in America claiming to have connected with Jesus, etc. The same can be said for any civilization or religion that follows a God, for example. Had you been brought up in any of those societies, your mind would fill in the gaps differently, etc. The more likely explanation is that these spiritual experiences aren’t really spiritual at all, but a sort of confirmation bias. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/143 "2012-01-12T04:27:50Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > I’ve studied a little philosophy at university, no history. I’ve read a bit more Phil and some history and I have to agree with you here. Anthropology opens the eyes also. When you read up on all these weird and wonderful cultures and do so to a depth where you can really come to appreciate that they believe in their odd-seeming gods just as deeply as one’s own culture believes in its gods, you come to see the whole idea that your culture has happened to have “got it right” while other cultures worship false gods as laughable and arrogant. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/144 "2012-01-12T04:48:05Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Ok, so its a default assumption. Which makes sense because why would you assume a purpose if the aim is to limit your investigation to strictly external verifiable phenomenon. But then to turn that around and claim the assumption of no purpose is proof that there is no purpose is circular isn’t it? It’s exactly the way we normally function. The lack of evidence for elves means that we think and act under the assumption that there are no elves. And it goes well beyond just “no evidence” that there’s a purpose. There’s the fact that the people claiming that there is a purpose wildly contradict each other and have a history of being utterly wrong; there’s the fact that there’s no plausible mechanism for such a purpose to be imposed; there’s the fact that the supposed author of that purpose is wildly implausible; there’s the fact that life is sloppily designed and constructed. It simply doesn’t look like a mind was behind it. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/145 "2012-01-12T04:51:29Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > It depends on the person’s experience. Usually though it can be broken down into some sort of stimuli that gets misattributed, in the most general sense. It’s a pretty broad question. > > My point though is that you’ll always hear stories of people praying and having great things happen, or dreams that depict real-life events before they happen, or anecdotes about seeing the ghosts of loved ones, or hear voices from beyond, or have an out-of-body experience, or visit Heaven, blah blah blah. But these are all well known errors. > > Basically, anything you can designate a “spiritual experience” is much more likely to be explainable through science – the mere fact that we are human. We understand very well the various follies of the human brain and its susceptibility to hallucination and delusion and how it fills in gaps to make sense of the world. We see it all the time in neuroscience. The study of eyewitness testimony is a good example of how feeble human perception and memory recall really is. > > The ultimate weakness of spiritual experience is that it’s not reproducible evidence. If you come to me and tell me you had a connection with God, it means nothing to me. I can’t verify it for myself, unlike science, which is true for everyone and universally verifiable. I have to basically take you at your word, even though there is a mountain of evidence suggesting that you probably misattributed a particular experience/stimuli and thought it was “spiritual.” > > It’s like how you can look back at ancient Greece and read stories of people who had religious experiences with Zeus, or people here in America claiming to have connected with Jesus, etc. The same can be said for any civilization or religion that follows a God, for example. Had you been brought up in any of those societies, your mind would fill in the gaps differently, etc. The more likely explanation is that these spiritual experiences aren’t really spiritual at all, but a sort of confirmation bias. But I’m not expecting anyone to verify any specific experience, just suggesting that you have to be careful and make sure you aren’t simply hand waving an alternative explanation away. As you correctly say these are personal experiences not open to verification by anyone except the person who had the experience. If it happened just once, then I’d be inclined to dismiss it. But these happen to some people quite frequently, and they have happened throughout recorded history and they continue to happen. It is a bit unsettling to think that there may be experiences people are having and have always had, which can’t be explained or if they are “explained” they are “explained away” because it just seems more likely that it was a trick of the mind, a momentary confusion. Then again these experiences appear delusional from the outset because they don’t fit in with the expectation of mundane phenomena. You also have to assume that when people share these experiences with others, they will do so in terms they understand specify to their time and culture. Quite possibly if I’m an ancient Greek I may well say I had an experience with Zeus. You can think of that imagery as the surface features of the experience, with the underlying components being non-verbal and non-visual. The same type of experience could have the same underling components but have totally different surface features depending on time and place. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/146 "2012-01-12T04:51:29Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Atheism is an escape hatch for those of us who are uncomfortable with the notion that the world we exist in is infinit and essentially un-fathomable by us puny humans. In Atheism we can hide our fears behind the belief that eventually all questions can be defined in mathematical relationships and a well stacked table of fundamental particles and forces. The fact that we aren’t there yet is simply because we’ve just barely begun the enterprise, but someday we will fathom our existence in every possible detail, leaving no question unanswered, complete masters of our existence and our future. > > Agree/Disagree ? Absolutely disagree. I am an atheist because despite growing in a Catholic home and being educated in a Catholic school I could still not find any evidence to the existence of a god or gods. The first step was to realize that Christians are but a tiny minority of believers of god or gods that ever existed, and why did they have to be more right than the others. And once you figure out how absolutely insane some religious beliefs are (no only Christianity, but this is the one I know better) and how internally conflicting these set of beliefs are, and how a lot of supposedly-divine things can be explained without god, the only reasonable conclusion is that there really are no gods. Knowing the limits of my existence freed me. I know where I am heading and it saddens me but it does not scare me. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/147 "2012-01-12T05:06:44Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Anthropology opens the eyes also. When you read up on all these weird and wonderful cultures and do so to a depth where you can really come to appreciate that they believe in their odd-seeming gods just as deeply as one’s own culture believes in its gods, you come to see the whole idea that your culture has happened to have “got it right” while other cultures worship false gods as laughable and arrogant. Yes and that’s why you need to look past the surface myth and look at the underlying structure. Some external event creates the world and a course is set that moves the development of the world in a particular direction. Opposites may be established that cause tension and friction in the world which generates change and movement. Cataclysms occur, rifts occur in the world, something new enters the world so that it can be repaired, but not without change. Ultimately cycles repeat themselves without end. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/148 "2012-01-12T05:26:34Z")
Strongly disagree. I doubt science will ever explain everything or that mankind can ever control even a tiny fraction of its own existence. I reject religion,or at least Judeo-Christianism, because it’s unimaginative, utterly groundless and _silly_. Also because it takes a huge dump on the Trickster archetype, and that’s my favourite one. When come back, bring Loki. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/149 "2012-01-12T05:50:49Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > But I’m not expecting anyone to verify any specific experience, just suggesting that you have to be careful and make sure you aren’t simply hand waving an alternative explanation away. As you correctly say these are personal experiences not open to verification by anyone except the person who had the experience. If it happened just once, then I’d be inclined to dismiss it. But these happen to some people quite frequently, and they have happened throughout recorded history and they continue to happen. It is a bit unsettling to think that there may be experiences people are having and have always had, which can’t be explained or if they are “explained” they are “explained away” because it just seems more likely that it was a trick of the mind, a momentary confusion. Then again these experiences appear delusional from the outset because they don’t fit in with the expectation of mundane phenomena. You also have to assume that when people share these experiences with others, they will do so in terms they understand specify to their time and culture. Quite possibly if I’m an ancient Greek I may well say I had an experience with Zeus. You can think of that imagery as the surface features of the experience, with the underlying components being non-verbal and non-visual. The same type of experience could have the same underling components but have totally different surface features depending on time and place. Depending on what specifically you consider a “spiritual experience,” there are in fact scientific studies and even [artificial stimulations](http://www.bidstrup.com/mystic.htm) of similar feelings. This is not a case of scientists just handwaving explanations away. If you can both measure and replicate a “trick of the mind” in a reliable and repeatable fashion, is it simply a trick? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/150 "2012-01-12T06:18:16Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Atheism is an escape hatch for those of us who are uncomfortable with the notion that the world we exist in is infinit and essentially un-fathomable by us puny humans. In Atheism we can hide our fears behind the belief that eventually all questions can be defined in mathematical relationships and a well stacked table of fundamental particles and forces. The fact that we aren’t there yet is simply because we’ve just barely begun the enterprise, but someday we will fathom our existence in every possible detail, leaving no question unanswered, complete masters of our existence and our future. > > Agree/Disagree ? Personally I agree, but mishagoe you’ll never get an atheist to admit to humility or cowardice or not knowing something. Atheism is not for people with any kind of human frailty. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/151 "2012-01-12T06:20:33Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Strongly disagree. I doubt science will ever explain everything or that mankind can ever control even a tiny fraction of its own existence. I reject religion,or at least Judeo-Christianism, because it’s unimaginative, utterly groundless and _silly_. > Also because it takes a huge dump on the Trickster archetype, and that’s my favourite one. When come back, bring Loki. Why is Loki not silly? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/152 "2012-01-12T06:23:10Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Why is Loki not silly? Because he does what he wants, Thor. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/153 "2012-01-12T06:33:20Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Personally I agree, but mishagoe you’ll never get an atheist to admit to humility or cowardice or not knowing something. Atheism is not for people with any kind of human frailty. Quite a bold statement there I would say most atheists are quite fine with knowing that they do not, nor may never personally know something. Yet theists will ignore that their holy books are frauds and or forgeries with no historical or modern evidence of truth while ignoring the current scientific consensus that has been affirmed by fMRI that spirituality is a side affect of our hyperactive agency detection system. The same brain function that makes you think a bump in the night is a burglar makes you assign agency to your existence and larger events. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/154 "2012-01-12T07:00:24Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Yes and that’s why you need to look past the surface myth and look at the underlying structure. Some external event creates the world and a course is set that moves the development of the world in a particular direction. Opposites may be established that cause tension and friction in the world which generates change and movement. Cataclysms occur, rifts occur in the world, something new enters the world so that it can be repaired, but not without change. Ultimately cycles repeat themselves without end. The underlying structure of religions of very different cultures are too different to be able to suggest they all have some common (and valid) foundation if that is what you are trying for. And the rest of your post is a steaming load of vague mystical claptrap. > [@Theophane](#): > > Personally I agree, but mishagoe you’ll never get an atheist to admit to humility or cowardice or not knowing something. Atheism is not for people with any kind of human frailty. I don’t think you can have participated in many of these discussions, or if you have, you have been deaf to atheist comments. As to humility, who is it that thinks they are the special creations of a superbeing, and who is it that thinks they are an insignificant bunch of carbon based molecules formed by chance process, scratching around on a rock orbiting a star in a universe that doesn’t care about them? I suspect you think atheists don’t have humility because atheists won’t kowtow to your world view. Which, if I’m right, shows stunning inhumility on your part. As to not knowing something, this is the default of all empirical people, atheists being empirical people. I know very little, really. And what I do consider myself to know I will throw out when evidence to the contrary comes along. That’s why I’m an atheist: I don’t know any gods exist. I have no certainty about the origins of the universe or life on Earth or what is moral and what isn’t or what happened in Galilee and environs about 2000 years ago. Nor do I have any certainty about what source I could use to find out about these things. The scientific method appears to work. That’s the most I can say. I suspect you have a great deal of certainty about your god or gods existence, and about the facts you believe as a consequence. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/155 "2012-01-12T07:09:11Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Personally I agree, but mishagoe you’ll never get an atheist to admit to humility or cowardice or not knowing something. Atheism is not for people with any kind of human frailty. That’s a very ignorant comment. Atheism is ultimately humble. You’re the guy who thinks the universe was created so you can have your special-flower day in the sun. Atheists only have one thing in common. They reject the abject stupidity of theism. They can have other types of stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/156 "2012-01-12T07:16:02Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I don’t think that is true. I have met very few people, religious or otherwise, who ignore their painful realities. I think this is one of the misconceptions thrown out that religious believe must come out of a need to escape life’s hardships. Often time religious believe results in painful hardships. Oh religion causes much pain. But that isn’t why people believe. They believe because of what religion offers. Easy answers to weighty problems. The pain is caused when people try to live by the dictates of stinking bronze-age desert savages. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/157 "2012-01-12T07:52:27Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Why is Loki not silly? He would be if I actually believed he existed. Which I don’t. As a story character, he’s frickin’ awesome, like all Tricksters. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/158 "2012-01-12T08:40:45Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Personally I agree, but mishagoe you’ll never get an atheist to admit to humility or cowardice or not knowing something. Atheism is not for people with any kind of human frailty. This is probably the most ignorant and arrogant comment I’ve read on the internet in a long time. If there’s one underlying philosophy behind atheism, it’s “We don’t know.” We don’t know exactly how the universe came into being. We don’t know exactly how life originally formed. We don’t know if we’re alone in the universe, if there are other forms of life out there. We don’t know any of these things, and a multitude of other things, _so let’s find out_. Let’s \*not \*just assume that an invisible sky pixie made everything for us just because an old book says so. If anything, \*religion \*requires cowardice and ignorance, the willingness to say “God did it” whenever any question is asked. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/159 "2012-01-12T12:53:58Z")
Disagree. I am an atheist because no one has convinced me that their ideas regarding a supernatural entity are credible. > [@Theophane](#): > > Personally I agree, but mishagoe you’ll never get an atheist to admit to humility or cowardice or not knowing something. Atheism is not for people with any kind of human frailty. Let me fight your ignorance: I do not know whether God(s) exists. My pleasure! ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199/160 "2012-01-12T12:55:45Z")
> [@martu](#): > > Disagree. I am an atheist because no one has convinced me that their ideas regarding a supernatural entity are credible. > > Let me fight your ignorance: > > I do not know whether God(s) exists. > > My pleasure! If you don’t know whether God(s) exist, you too are ignorant! And maybe human! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/premiss-atheism-is-for-people-who-cant-handle-religion/609199.md?page=9)