# Prenuptual Agreements...for or against. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 27, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990 "2012-10-27T00:25:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/61 "2012-10-30T01:11:25Z")
I thnk you have a very good point about medical insurance benefits and authority to make decisions on behalf of an incapicated spouse. Although medical insurance benefits tend to be the same regardless of whether a couple are married not, there are exceptions, and in any event, being married makes it more difficult for the insurer to weasel. Same goes for death benefits. Decision making power for an incapicated spouse can be granted by a power or attorney, but often non-married spouses forget to do this. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/62 "2012-10-30T02:10:35Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > And I guess I see a prenup there as a band-aid on a more serious problem: you should be talking about those things regardless. Also, it seems to me that if a couple is that blind to each other’s worldviews, they will most likely keep that blindness: whatever the prenup says, they will both assume that the other person really agrees with them. > > And I guess I tend to think that vastly more often than not, in these cases you are better off having an incentive to cut your losses than not. A marriage that is miserable for 20 years is not more successful than one that’s miserable for 5. > > How would a pre-nup help in this case? I can’t imagine one that said “Both spouses will work full time once unless any children under the age of five remain in the home. In the event that one spouse does not pursue employment after the first of September in they year the youngest child turns five, all assets earned (including accumulating equity in the home) become the sole property of the person earning them”. I mean, who would sign such a thing? It would have to have exceptions clauses, like “Unless both partners agree that one spouse staying home is a better solution” and I bet all those wives think that is the case. > > . No, the prenup would specify support will be limited in years until the youngest child turns five. I would question the intent of anyone who wouldn’t be willing to sign “such a thing”. To me, it is a person looking for a meal ticket for life. Long term marriage often have lifetime maintenance. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/63 "2012-10-30T10:28:53Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > No, the prenup would specify support will be limited in years until the youngest child turns five. I would question the intent of anyone who wouldn’t be willing to sign “such a thing”. To me, it is a person looking for a meal ticket for life. Long term marriage often have lifetime maintenance. You’re saying that the pre-nup would say "No spousal support if we get divorced after the kids turn five’. Ok, I don’t see how that helps with the spouse who won’t go back to work when the kids are in school. If the working spouse feels so strongly about it, the time to get divorced is within two years of the youngest kid turning 5, at which point it’s pretty clear what the new pattern is. There’s no lifetime maintenance when a marriage is of ten or fewer years. Bitching and moaning about it for a decade or more after the kids are in school, and then suddenly deciding that you “can’t” get divorced because of spousal support is really missing the point. I think what is really at play is that the working spouse often considers property purchased during the marriage to really be “his” (or hers), not “theirs”, because hey, he (or she) paid for it. That’s what they don’t want to divide. And it really doesn’t seem reasonable to say “I want you to drop out of the workforce for 5-10 years, and spend those years taking care of our mutual responsibilities, including both our kids and our household. At the end of that period of time, if we get divorced you are entirely on your own”. I know that when we decided my husband should stay home with the baby that he was taking a much bigger financial risk than I was. I can’t imagine asking him to be the only one to shoulder that risk when I am very much reaping the benefits right now. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/64 "2012-10-30T14:24:36Z")
Marriages are built on trust, I think. If you need me to sign something, I’m not feeling the trust. If you think I could railroad you, then you apparently don’t know me very well, and we shouldn’t be getting married. If you know me at all, you know that’s not who I am. Sorry, no prenup for me. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/65 "2012-10-30T14:46:43Z")
I agree with Elbows. I think marraige should be about trust. If you’re worried the other person is gonna turn into a total shitheel in the event of divorce, you are probably marrying the wrong person from the get go. My wife and I both talked about financial issues. I was relieved to find that we have very similar attitudes about money and possessions. We’ve had our ‘what ifs’ on if we got divorced (both without and with children). To me, I think California law is reasonable on how things would play out. To me, feeling hung up about my hypothetical ex wife getting something I didn’t think she deserved is just being hung up about the hypothetical divorce and being unable to move on. Neither of us went into our marraige with much. My wife is going to grad school right now but because of a grant I’m not really supporting her at all; she’s pretty financially self-sufficient. So the way we see things there’s nothing we can’t agree on verbally. People do change. But whats more common is one person changing, and the other partner choosing to ignore it until it becomes impossible to ignore. The coworkers I have that got ‘screwed over’ in divorces wasn’t for a lack of a pre-nup, it was foolishness on their part- they wanted a 1950’s style marraige, but didn’t realize their partner might get used to that lifestyle (but without them in their life). The coworkers that had divorces and aren’t hung up about them generally weren’t attached to stuff that they supposedly ‘lost’ in the divorce, and were able to move on with their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/66 "2012-10-30T15:15:02Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > If you know me at all, you know that’s not who I am. Sorry, no prenup for me. Prenups aren’t about who you _are_. They’re about the crazy fucker that you have a roughly even chance of becoming at some point during the marriage. [QUOTE=Incubus] If you’re worried the other person is gonna turn into a total shitheel in the event of divorce, you are probably marrying the wrong person from the get go. [/QUOTE] If you aren’t worried about it, it’s because you don’t listen to your friends and family. Assuming the person you’re with now is going to be exactly the same in 10, 15 or 30 years isn’t the proof of genuine love; it’s proof that you are short-sighted and irrational. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/67 "2012-10-30T15:21:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Prenups aren’t about who you _are_. They’re about the crazy fucker that you have a roughly even chance of becoming at some point during the marriage. > > If you aren’t worried about it, it’s because you don’t listen to your friends and family. Assuming the person you’re with now is going to be exactly the same in 10, 15 or 30 years isn’t the proof of genuine love; it’s proof that you are short-sighted and irrational. I don’t see how a pre-nup is going to be a hedge against that. What is a pre-nup going to protect that California marraige laws don’t? My wife and I went into our marraige with basically zero assets- what would I be walking away from that I would have had with a pre-nup? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/68 "2012-10-30T15:50:31Z")
You were talking about how pre-nups are bad because marriage is about trust, not about how you didn’t personally need one because you have no stuff. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/69 "2012-10-31T02:14:07Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Ignoring the simple fact that there are terms is the divorce equivalent of sticking your head in the sand. This. I find it bizarre that someone would sign what they consider to be the most important contract of their life and not have defined the terms. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/70 "2012-10-31T17:54:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Prenups aren’t about who you _are_. They’re about the crazy fucker that you have a roughly even chance of becoming at some point during the marriage. > > If you aren’t worried about it, it’s because you don’t listen to your friends and family. Assuming the person you’re with now is going to be exactly the same in 10, 15 or 30 years isn’t the proof of genuine love; it’s proof that you are short-sighted and irrational. Agreed. If you start out with nothing why not protect what may happen to the future? First and foremost, no spousal support. If a split happen, each party supports themselves. 401Ks can be addressed, future inheritances, financial expectations as far as credit card debts etc. The list can be as long or short as you want it to be as long as both parties agree that it is fair. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/71 "2012-10-31T18:45:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Prenups aren’t about who you _are_. They’re about the crazy fucker that you have a roughly even chance of becoming at some point during the marriage. If I become a crazy fucker, I see no reason to make it easier on myself to be a jerk about being a crazy fucker. If I don’t have a net, I might still fall from the tightrope. But if I do have a net and I get tired, I might be willing to let myself fall. Without the net, if I get tired, I’ll not take that risk. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/72 "2012-10-31T19:59:10Z")
I believe I speak for everyone when I say, “_que_?” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/73 "2012-10-31T20:00:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I believe I speak for everyone when I say, “_que_?” Not sure why it’s confusing. A prenup makes divorce an easier process. I don’t want to make divorce an easier process. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/74 "2012-10-31T20:05:53Z")
I voted no, because I made vows comprising a \*nuptial \*contract, which could not have been valid in the presence of any prenuptial contract worth writing. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/75 "2012-11-17T18:27:46Z")
> [@Quasimodal](#): > > I especially feel vulnerable as a male. coming late to the party, but I’ve not seen anything in this thread that explains this point, or why the OP feels vulnerable as a male. Canadian matrimonial property laws are gender-neutral, and the general rules are 1. property acquired before marriage remains separate; 2. property acquired after marriage is joint; 3. the family home is joint, whether acquired before or after marriage. Support rules are also gender-neutral, and only apply if one party’s earning capacity has been reduced as a result of the marriage (e.g. Staying home to look after the kids thus losing employability and income). Not intended as legal advice, of course, but just to discuss a matter of public interest. Anyone who needs advice on property and support issues should consult a lawyer experienced in those areas, not rely on posts on the Internet. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/76 "2012-11-17T18:35:18Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > coming late to the party, but I’ve not seen anything in this thread that explains this point, or why the OP feels vulnerable as a male. > > Canadian matrimonial property laws are gender-neutral, and the general rules are 1. property acquired before marriage remains separate; 2. property acquired after marriage is joint; 3. the family home is joint, whether acquired before or after marriage. > > Support rules are also gender-neutral, and only apply if one party’s earning capacity has been reduced as a result of the marriage (e.g. Staying home to look after the kids thus losing employability and income). > > Not intended as legal advice, of course, but just to discuss a matter of public interest. Anyone who needs advice on property and support issues should consult a lawyer experienced in those areas, not rely on posts on the Internet. What if I for eg. Run a successful small business where I make three times the salary my SO does, and the support the SO puts into my business is soley emotional support and nothing else. Would that entitle the SO to a cut of my profit to ensure the SO life style is not lessened ? For this scenario, no children would be involved or they are adults. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/77 "2012-11-17T18:46:16Z")
How is that inquiry tied to your gender or that of your SO? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/78 "2012-11-17T18:49:42Z")
Depends on the province, but yes, in our common law provinces, even when there were no children, usually a difference in income following a long term relationship will trigger spousal support for roughly as long as the parties were together, such that on an after tax basis little less than half of the parties’ combined income will end up in the hands of the recipient. Here’s a calculator to play with, but be advised that this is just a rule of thumb, and there are a great many factors that would change the result, and often there are changes in circumstances in later years that would change the entitlement or quantum at that later date: [MySupportCalculator.ca](http://www.mysupportcalculator.ca/Calculator.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/79 "2012-11-17T18:57:03Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > How is that inquiry tied to your gender or that of your SO? In law, one’s sex is not a relevant factor when deciding spousal support. In reality, men more often make more than women. Unfortunately, a lot of men improperly jump (well actually, they usually smolder and fester to a conclusion, and then flare up in occastional rages to spew their faulty logic on those around them) to the comclusion that the law is biased against men. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990/80 "2012-11-17T21:41:36Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > How is that inquiry tied to your gender or that of your SO? I left gender out of it for a reason. But looks like according to Muffin, yes there is such thing as spousal support . That’s all I was asking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prenuptual-agreements-for-or-against/638990.md?page=3)