# Pres. Kennedy v. Pres. Johnson. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2013, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906 "2013-11-27T10:03:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/21 "2013-11-27T20:30:13Z")
The primary reason crime went up in this period was leaded gasoline. Not police tactics, not poverty, not birth-rates: [http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline](http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/22 "2013-11-27T21:43:32Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > To those of us active in the anti-war movement of the 60s, Johnson was nothing short of an evil despot. > > \*“Hey, hey, LBJ, > How many kids have you killed today?” > \* LBJ Took the IRT Down to 4th Street USA When he got there What did he see? The youth of America On LSD! 🙂 – _Hair_ ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/23 "2013-11-27T21:51:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think that it wasn’t for Vietnam, and its overblown place in American history, LBJ would be considered one of the greatest American presidents. If you study Vietnam history, you quickly learn that Johnson was a terrible president. One who refused to accept bad news to the point that Robert McNamara was afraid to deliver the truth to him. Additionally, his fear of China and Russia becoming involved in the war resulted in his tying the hands of the military leaders in country. Johnson wisely refused to run for a second term, which in retrospect, was a blessing for the country. His Commander-in-chief attributes were among the poorest of any president. Stanley Karnow covers this quite well in [_Vietnam, a History._](http://www.amazon.com/Vietnam-History-Stanley-Karnow/dp/0140265473/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385589006&sr=8-1&keywords=stanley+karnow+vietnam) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/24 "2013-11-27T22:01:44Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > If you study Vietnam history, you quickly learn that Johnson was a terrible president. One who refused to accept bad news to the point that Robert McNamara was afraid to deliver the truth to him. Additionally, his fear of China and Russia becoming involved in the war resulted in his tying the hands of the military leaders in country. Johnson wisely refused to run for a second term, which in retrospect, was a blessing for the country. His Commander-in-chief attributes were among the poorest of any president. Stanley Karnow covers this quite well in [_Vietnam, a History._](http://www.amazon.com/Vietnam-History-Stanley-Karnow/dp/0140265473/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385589006&sr=8-1&keywords=stanley+karnow+vietnam) Four Presidents in a row made mistakes in Vietnam. Eisenhower tied the United States to South Vietnam in the mistaken belief that they could form a stable self-sustaining country. Kennedy got America more directly involved in the mistaken belief the situation could be resolved with a few special ops. Johnson pushed for a big escalation in the mistaken belief that Hanoi would back down to a show of force. And Nixon had the mistaken belief he could end the war by making deals with Moscow and Beijing. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/25 "2013-11-27T22:17:00Z")
If LBJ was in charge during the Cuban missile crisis the eastern seaboard would probably be an irradiated wasteland. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/26 "2013-11-27T22:26:13Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > If LBJ was in charge during the Cuban missile crisis the eastern seaboard would probably be an irradiated wasteland. I was in 2nd grade during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and we did the whole “duck and cover” thing. We really had no idea what it was all about. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/27 "2013-11-28T00:25:28Z")
I think of both JFK and LBJ as “Jekyll-and-Hyde” Presidents, or if you prefer like Longfellow’s curly-haired girl: “When she was good, She was very good indeed, But when she was bad she was horrid.” Among achievements on the good side, JFK gets special credit for the Moon landings and for the Peace Corps. The Moon landings might never have happened without JFK’s ambition and charisma. Whatever one thinks of LBJ’s Great Society, his Civil Rights Act was huge. I think both of these men might be judged as giants compared with the Presidents that came after. > [@marshmallow](#): > > If LBJ was in charge during the Cuban missile crisis the eastern seaboard would probably be an irradiated wasteland. We’ve had this argument before. Briefly, there’s a strong case that it was JFK arrogance and politicking that led to foreign-policy mistakes, e.g. his refusal to compromise and avoid the missile crisis. > [@Clothahump](#): > > LBJ was a crook on a grandiose scale. He burdened us with Medicare, etc. simply to buy votes. It was all about him, with no thought toward the long-term effects, good or bad. … Was the Civil Rights Act to “buy votes”? Most informed sources would call that completely backwards. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/28 "2013-11-28T01:01:45Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > If LBJ was in charge during the Cuban missile crisis the eastern seaboard would probably be an irradiated wasteland. The crisis happened primarily because Khruschev saw JFK as inexperienced. If Nixon or LBJ had been President, Khruschev would never have placed the missiles in Cuba in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/29 "2013-11-28T01:03:28Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > LBJ was a crook on a grandiose scale. He burdened us with Medicare, etc. simply to buy votes. And he signed the Civil Rights Act why? You know, if “buying votes” means enacting policies the people will like enough to reward you by voting for you again, there is nothing corrupt about that form of “buying votes,” it’s simply and exactly how republican government is supposed to work. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/30 "2013-11-28T01:22:07Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > JFK was much more conservative than most folks give him credit for. LBJ was a crook on a grandiose scale. He burdened us with Medicare, etc. simply to buy votes. It was all about him, with no thought toward the long-term effects, good or bad. And let’s not go into his cowboying up and digging us into Vietnam. Pure disaster. > > Gee, history seems to be repeating itself. George Santayana was a freakin’ prophet: JFK suggested much of LBJ’s legislation and do you believe expanding health care for tens of millions of Americans is purely “buying votes”? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/31 "2013-11-28T03:27:00Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Was the Civil Rights Act to “buy votes”? Most informed sources would call that completely backwards. I will simply respond with LBJ’s own statement on the Civil Rights Act: “I’ll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years." ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/32 "2013-11-28T03:32:12Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I will simply respond with LBJ’s own statement on the Civil Rights Act: “I’ll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years." That’s evidence of vote buying? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/33 "2013-11-28T04:33:58Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I will simply respond with LBJ’s own statement on the Civil Rights Act: “I’ll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years." It’s a really dubious quote. A lot of sources claim Johnson said it but nobody seems to know exactly when he said it or to whom. And it’s not the kind of thing Johnson would have said. Johnson was a sharp politician and he knew that civil rights were going to cost the Democrats a lot more white votes than the black votes they’d gain. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/34 "2013-11-28T04:53:57Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I will simply respond with LBJ’s own statement on the Civil Rights Act: “I’ll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years." Your credulity knows no bounds as long as a right-wing source is supplying the quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/35 "2013-11-28T06:06:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s a really dubious quote. A lot of sources claim Johnson said it but nobody seems to know exactly when he said it or to whom. > > And it’s not the kind of thing Johnson would have said. Johnson was a sharp politician and he knew that civil rights were going to cost the Democrats a lot more white votes than the black votes they’d gain. Of course they know who he said it too! “Two unnamed governors”!:dubious: Personally, I’ll take it with the same grain of salt I’ll take the claim Marie Antionette said “Let them eat cake”. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/36 "2013-11-28T15:34:01Z")
I totally agree-LBJ was possibly the worst president in American history. In Vietnam, he fancied himself a military strategist-this led to disasters like the Tet Offensive and Khe Sanh. Second, he was highly corrupt-all of his Texas buddies became rich men as a result of the war. Johnson had no problem wrapping himself in the flag, but took the coward’s way out-by refusing to run in 1968, he assured the Republican victory. he created lots of messes, and walked away from them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/37 "2013-11-28T16:17:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Of course they know who he said it too! > > “Two unnamed governors”!:dubious: > > Personally, I’ll take it with the same grain of salt I’ll take the claim Marie Antionette said “Let them eat cake”. If giving black people civil rights had been a politically valuable move then it would have happened decades earlier. Every politician wants votes. If you got free votes for helping black people, every President and every Congressmen back to the 1870’s would have been first in line to do it. Obviously that didn’t happen. Every politician saw that civil rights was an issue that cost you votes. That’s why even politicians who had no personal animosity towards black people avoided civil rights. Johnson was unique because he genuinely cared about civil rights, he was willing to pursue it despite being aware of the cost, and he was able to muscle Congress into enacting it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/38 "2013-11-28T16:35:34Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I totally agree-LBJ was possibly the worst president in American history. Like him or dislike him, how is LBJ the “worst president in American history”? What about Buchanan, who, thanks to what I’ll be charitable and call a failure of will, let a third of the country secede and do nothing to stop it? Or Harding, who pretty much put the government up for sale to the highest bidder? Or Hoover, who’s reputation as a businessman and a humanitarian was spoiled by his anemic response to the Great Depression? Or Andrew Johnson, who spent his entire administration fighting with Congress about Reconstruction? Or Jimmy Carter, who proved inept in handling foreign policy, domestic policy, and even his own party? Or what about Nixon, even, who made as many mistakes in Vietnam as LBJ and paired that with a paranoid plot to get reelected in violation of the law? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/39 "2013-11-28T17:37:25Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Like him or dislike him, how is LBJ the “worst president in American history”? What about Buchanan, who, thanks to what I’ll be charitable and call a failure of will, let a third of the country secede and do nothing to stop it? Or Harding, who pretty much put the government up for sale to the highest bidder? Or Hoover, who’s reputation as a businessman and a humanitarian was spoiled by his anemic response to the Great Depression? Or Andrew Johnson, who spent his entire administration fighting with Congress about Reconstruction? Or Jimmy Carter, who proved inept in handling foreign policy, domestic policy, and even his own party? Or what about Nixon, even, who made as many mistakes in Vietnam as LBJ and paired that with a paranoid plot to get reelected in violation of the law? Did any of these guys launch a war that killed over 65,000 Americans, over 1,000,000 Vietnamese, and maimed hundreds of thousands for life? You are far too charitable with this monster (Johnson). I think Johnson did have something of a conscience…which is why he dropped out in 1968. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906/40 "2013-11-28T18:18:25Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Did any of these guys launch a war that killed over 65,000 Americans, over 1,000,000 Vietnamese, and maimed hundreds of thousands for life? Not that history has recorded, at least, although I have my suspicions about James Buchanan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pres-kennedy-v-pres-johnson/674906.md?page=3)