# Presbyterians to allow Gay ministers **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 11, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presbyterians-to-allow-gay-ministers/581479 "2011-05-11T04:29:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presbyterians-to-allow-gay-ministers/581479/21 "2011-05-12T04:59:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Do you want Old Testament or New Testament? > > Old: > [Leviticus 18:22](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+18&version=NIV) - “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” > > [Leviticus 20:13](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2020&version=NIV) - "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. " > > Those sound a lot like commands. > > New: > [Romans 1:26-27](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201&version=NIV) - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. / In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. " > > Having it mentioned in both is sufficient for many people. How did it come to have a gender neutral reading? Or is it that lesbian relationships are covered elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presbyterians-to-allow-gay-ministers/581479/22 "2011-05-12T05:02:34Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > Has anyone heard what Franklin Graham’s reaction was? Too bad he can’t just align himself with an African diocese, like some of the Episcopalian ministers.[sup]1[/sup] > > 1 - Female circumcision and genital mutilation are a-okay, as long as they’re allowed to hate the gays with impunity. I thought Graham was a Baptist? ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presbyterians-to-allow-gay-ministers/581479/23 "2011-05-12T12:08:53Z")
No - the Graham ministries are Presbyterian. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presbyterians-to-allow-gay-ministers/581479/24 "2011-05-13T06:06:34Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > No - the Graham ministries are Presbyterian. I’m pretty sure you’re wrong about that; do you have a cite? The [Samaritan’s Purse](http://www.samaritanspurse.org/index.php/Who_We_Are/About_Us) website says they are nondenominational, and I see nothing on the [Billy Graham Evangelistic Association’s](http://www.billygraham.org/default.asp) website about any affiliation with any Presbyterian denomination. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presbyterians-to-allow-gay-ministers/581479/25 "2011-05-13T15:47:06Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > How did it come to have a gender neutral reading? Or is it that lesbian relationships are covered elsewhere? It’s usually assumed that the Bible is just sexist enough that female homosexual relationships are equally bad but not worth mentioning. Or something. I don’t know of any specific passages that deal with it. I have heard that in some parts of Latin America, gay men deal with much more discrimination than lesbian women specifically because the Bible does not prohibit lesbianism. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presbyterians-to-allow-gay-ministers/581479/26 "2011-05-13T16:32:37Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > I’m pretty sure you’re wrong about that; do you have a cite? The [Samaritan’s Purse](http://www.samaritanspurse.org/index.php/Who_We_Are/About_Us) website says they are nondenominational, and I see nothing on the [Billy Graham Evangelistic Association’s](http://www.billygraham.org/default.asp) website about any affiliation with any Presbyterian denomination. I don’t know about now, but [Billy Graham](http://www.billygraham.org/biographies_show.asp?p=1&d=1) was originally a Southern Baptist. (A more liberal one than most, though – he was never a member of the “Religious Right”) ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presbyterians-to-allow-gay-ministers/581479/27 "2011-05-13T17:41:14Z")
It appears that Graham’s wife and children are (were) Presbyterian. I know that their retreat in Montreat is used by a lot of Presbyterians, too. For some reason, I had it in my head that Billy Graham had changed his donomination. He may not have, or since Ruth died, he’s pushing his Baptist roots more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presbyterians-to-allow-gay-ministers/581479.md?page=1)