# Present evidence for the existence of your deity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737 "2012-04-23T19:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/201 "2012-04-24T17:54:08Z")
you’re right. That is the split. Agnostic atheist. So you’re not saying that there definitely without question, is NO god? I suppose my biased view of reality assumes that’s your stance? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/202 "2012-04-24T17:56:04Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > you’re right. That is the split. Agnostic atheist. So you’re not saying that there definitely without question, is NO god? I suppose my biased view of reality assumes that’s your stance? That is correct, I am not saying, with certainty, that God doesn’t exist. I don’t know whether God exists or not. Further, I don’t know whether there is a coherent definition for God (one that doesn’t contradict itself). I don’t have any faith in any Gods that I’ve heard of. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/203 "2012-04-24T17:58:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Head slamming into table]_Bang!_[/Head slamming into table] > This thread ins’t about atheists disproving the Bible. > This thread is for religionists to display any evidence they may have as to the existence of their deity of choice. I think we agree here. Why are you hurting yourself? I said that is all for another thread. I am saying the challenge is a bit unfair in that stated in reverse it can be equally impossible to do. You can’t prove or disprove the existence of God. You seem to have faith that there is no such thing. And the religiousists have faith that there is. But I do enjoy the debate and thank whoever proposed it. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/204 "2012-04-24T18:00:52Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I think we agree here. Why are you hurting yourself? I said that is all for another thread. I am saying the challenge is a bit unfair in that stated in reverse it can be equally impossible to do. **You can’t prove or disprove the existence of God**. You seem to have faith that there is no such thing. And the religiousists have faith that there is. But I do enjoy the debate and thank whoever proposed it. A _firm_ agnostic, eh? 😉 I don’t know if I’d say it’s _impossible_ to either prove or disprove God. It may very well be the case that it is, mind you. That said, people **do** attempt to do both (either prove or disprove). ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/205 "2012-04-24T18:02:20Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I see, so you have hardcore proof that everyone who has had a supernatural experience is either lying or insane, huh? I certainly wouldn’t put it past atheists to manipulate “scientific” evidence either. There is a third option, lying, insane, or _mistaken_. If you can’t make rent, and you find a lottery scratcher on the ground and it gives you just enough to cover it, you might be convinced that God is blessing you. But, it might just be luck. > [@](#): > > We’re not talking about a random event. A woman that he never met was told by God to bring a white rose to the concert. Anyone with a non-biased perspective wouldn’t casually dismiss such a story as mere randomness. First off, he just told you what happened. He might be outright lying or puffing up the story to make it a better tale. But even if it happened as he said, there is a a minute, but possible chance that she just randomly gave him a flower because of a dream she had. If billions of people are on the Earth, there are trillions of chances for vastly unlikely events. If you fixate on the unlikely events, you don’t see the picture accurately. > [@](#): > > I understand that you need to believe that it is a BS story. Your comment only demonstrates a thinly veiled hatred of God. Reminds me of the atheist who finally admited that if God was real, he rather burn in hell than ever worship him. For once, I found honesty from an atheist. You described an evil, or at least utterly uncaring God. Someone who put a girl’s flower over tens of thousands starving to death. He’s willing to take action to give her a meaningless platitude, but is unwilling to take action for people actively suffering through no fault of their own. The deity you describe is either not all powerful, or not all-loving. > [@](#): > > Show me a verse where the Bible talks about sky dome. > **[Bible Search: firmament](https://biblehub.com/search.php?q=firmament)** > [@](#): > > You toss the term “fact” around loosely. Sorry, but you can not conclusively prove as fact something like the worldwide flood unless you personally witnessed the events. And you cannot say that the bible is accurate unless you witnessed the events. 😃 A world-wide flood would leave tell-tale geological evidence. This evidence isn’t there. If you shoot me, I have a bullet hole to show that I was shot. If you flood my planet, you leave geological evidence that it was flooded. > [@](#): > > The topic wouldn’t be a matter of debate if it was factually disproven. That’s the point of this thread. There isn’t a debate. You are demanding that there is a debate because you want your religion to be true. > [@](#): > > Yet, of course, you ignore the many things the Bible gets right well before mankind figured it out. No surprise, I certainly wouldn’t expect an atheist to play fair. I haven’t lied or dismissed any of your points with a handwave. You have laughed off my factual evidence and attacked my character. > [@](#): > > Ex. hydrologic cycle in Job 36:27-29 > > Earth is round - Isaiah 40:22 - and yes, the word “circle” translates as sphere. Others have dealt with this. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/206 "2012-04-24T18:04:14Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I think we agree here. Why are you hurting yourself? I said that is all for another thread. I am saying the challenge is a bit unfair in that stated in reverse it can be equally impossible to do. You can’t prove or disprove the existence of God. You seem to have faith that there is no such thing. And the religiousists have faith that there is. But I do enjoy the debate and thank whoever proposed it. As a tangent, you can’t prove or disprove Superman. I assume you are agnostic on Superman as well? How about Megatron? Tranzor Z? The Strawberry Shortcake Gang? You give all those the same intellectual credence as God, right? Because there is no way to disprove them. I’m only kidding, of course, but I’ve seen a lot of agnostics give a lot of special leeway to the idea of God, when they dismiss vampires and zombies out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/207 "2012-04-24T18:04:34Z")
I agree that the classical definition of God is false. But I am open to the idea that if God exists the complexity and magnitude would be beyond our limited brain capacity to comprehend. And that perhaps religion began as fear-based but I know that people do have spiritual experiences all the time. Whether that’s brought on by their own emotions and chemical responses, quite possibly, but they feel connected to something beyond their own experience. I don’t want to easily dismiss this yet. My bias is that we are all connected on some deeper level, that there is a global or cosmic consciousness. Perhaps that’s my relgion? I can’t prove it, but there are experiments that suggest it. Oh crap, now I have to go dig up the names of the experiments aren’t I? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/208 "2012-04-24T18:06:20Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I think we agree here. Why are you hurting yourself? I said that is all for another thread. I am saying the challenge is a bit unfair in that stated in reverse it can be equally impossible to do. You can’t prove or disprove the existence of God. You seem to have faith that there is no such thing. And the religiousists have faith that there is. But I do enjoy the debate and thank whoever proposed it. I am _not_ trying to prove or disprove God. This thread was specifically created for those religionists that claim to have evidence to present the claimed evidence for evaluation. Have you even read the OP? ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/209 "2012-04-24T18:06:20Z")
I can disprove Superman because we know who created Superman. We have the original Superman comic. But cute. I like your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/210 "2012-04-24T18:08:39Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I can disprove Superman because we know who created Superman. We have the original Superman comic. But cute. I like your reasoning. The comic is just a way to let people know he was out there, without saying it outright. 😃 Okay, withdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/211 "2012-04-24T18:12:32Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I can disprove Superman because we know who created Superman. We have the original Superman comic. How do we know Superman wasn’t always out there and just the comic book when he wanted to reveal himself? ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/212 "2012-04-24T18:12:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am _not_ trying to prove or disprove God. This thread was specifically created for those religionists that claim to have evidence to present the claimed evidence for evaluation. Have you even read the OP? I admit I jumped in a bit late. But I can’t help thinking that posing this challenge to simple minded fundamentalists is a bit of intellectually bullying. I don’t mean offense but seriously. So I felt the need to defend them a bit, I suppose. At least try to level the playing field. It’s too easy to shatter someone’s faith when it is based on a flawed and manipulted series of books that were gathered together to unite the Roman Empire. But to someone who suggests that there is room for God in the multiverse or beyond, it can be a bit more challenging. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/213 "2012-04-24T18:17:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > How do we know Superman wasn’t always out there and just the comic book when he wanted to reveal himself? Because Spider-man is the true Super Hero. And both DC and Marvel can’t be true! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/214 "2012-04-24T18:18:12Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I admit I jumped in a bit late. But I can’t help thinking that posing this challenge to simple minded fundamentalists is a bit of intellectually bullying. I don’t mean offense but seriously. So I felt the need to defend them a bit, I suppose. At least try to level the playing field. It’s too easy to shatter someone’s faith when it is based on a flawed and manipulted series of books that were gathered together to unite the Roman Empire. But to someone who suggests that there is room for God in the multiverse or beyond, it can be a bit more challenging. In my opinion the bullying has been done by those religionists that have claimed they have evidence for their deity, but think that others shouldn’t ask to see such evidence out of some misguided respect for their religion. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/215 "2012-04-24T18:22:28Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I think we agree here. Why are you hurting yourself? I said that is all for another thread. I am saying the challenge is a bit unfair in that stated in reverse it can be equally impossible to do. You can’t prove or disprove the existence of God. You seem to have faith that there is no such thing. And the religiousists have faith that there is. But I do enjoy the debate and thank whoever proposed it. The topics of the reality or unreality of divine beings, (the Christian God, in particular), are argued _[del]ad nauseam[/del]_ _ad infinitum_ on this forum. One persistent claim made by a number of believers is that they have proof that the divinity in whom they believe exists, BUT that no evidence that they offered would ever be accepted by “atheists.”\* This thread was started for the sole purpose of allowing those who share that belief to provide that evidence. Czarcasm finds it frustrating that the topic keeps being derailed into specific discussions of particular events. (I am not wholly sympathetic to his frustration, since I figure that he should have known what was going to happen–particularly given the well-documented mindset of the folks at whom this thread as directed–but that is the intention of the thread and so his frustration is understandable.) I note, for example, that the poster whose words triggered this thread continues to maintain in this thread, the same position that he has the evidence but that it would never be accepted. _::: shrug :::_ \*Atheists is presented in ironic quotation marks because the word, as used by one segment of fundy religionists, makes enormous, inaccurate assumptions about the actual thoughts, beliefs, and mindsets of a fairly large group of people who, (based on the word to describe them), share nothing but a lack of belief in a god. The word is a useful tool for those fundy religionists when appealing to those who share their beliefs, although it is inaccurate and inappropriate to use it so broadly in the claims that prompted this thread. There is also, of course, a group within the population of atheists who are as dogmatic as any theist about their beliefs, but they are not the focus of this thread. A large number of atheists and theists are probably able to discuss the issues, (rarely ultimately agreeing, of course), without getting into accusations of what the “other” believes, but they rarely venture into threads in which the discussion will inevitably start circling the drain the way most of these threads do. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/216 "2012-04-24T18:23:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In my opinion the bullying has been done by those religionists that have claimed they have evidence for their deity, but think that others shouldn’t ask to see such evidence out of some misguided respect for their religion. I concede this point. I assumed your motives were a bit contrary and I apologize. You’re right, if someone comes forward claiming to have evidence of God, by all means we should demand to see it. But usually relgious people, get past this one, by quoting scripture and saying it all comes down to faith alone. They don’t usually need proof. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/217 "2012-04-24T18:24:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In my opinion the bullying has been done by those religionists that have claimed they have evidence for their deity, but think that others shouldn’t ask to see such evidence out of some misguided respect for their religion. I believe bullying has come from both sides. Thiests shoving their faith down peoples throats with aggressive finger pointing. Athiests ridiculing peoples beliefs with statements of imagination and fairy tales. The 1 true conclusion is that we do not have enough information one way or another to make a conclusive statement. We have our beliefs. The possibilities are 1: God doesnt exist or 2: God exists. If #2 is the truth, then why are we here today? 2A: God doesnt want us to prove His existence, He wants us to have Faith 2B: We dont have the cerebral understanding to comprehend what God is 2C: We lack the tools to tangibly prove existence. There probably are other possibilities as well. I think it is sufficient to day that all anyone has one way or another is based on faith in your personal beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/218 "2012-04-24T18:25:57Z")
dngnb8 - what about the position that God existed at one time, but no longer exists? ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/219 "2012-04-24T18:27:28Z")
I’m going against my own advice, but at the end of the ice age seawater did rise nearly 24 meters. That’s kind of a flood. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/220 "2012-04-24T18:28:03Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Excuse me, but atheists are the ones who changed the subject. Nope. You were also one of the posters to offer the Bible up as a cite for your claims. The Bible was offered as having some sort of veracity, and it was shown to be fictional. Not, of course, that I expect you to do anything but change the subject and include some ignorant, silly snark about “atheists!!!” As for “striking similarities”, you are rather obviously trading in fallacies. Given that we have similar but divergent stories around certain archetypes in human history, and given that we have physical evidence proving that there was never a global flood, we can either posit a magical Trickster God who hid the evidence, or recognize that humans have a tendency to tell stories about certain archtypes. And despite more of your vacuous snark at “atheists”, the fact is that the Bible is full of all sorts of bits of counter-factual nonsense. Pointing to the flood is just a good way of showing that the book is fictional and, therefore, cannot be seriously presented as a work of fact. Predictably, of course, you are employing your standard set of double standards. The Bible is evidence of the existence of God, because (you claim) of its prophecies and such, and they’re accurate. The fact that an entire, major narrative structure in the text is 100% fictional doesn’t have any bearing on the subject. Just like the human body’s “perfection” evinces God’s handiwork, but any flaws can be handwaved away because _hey look over there!!!_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=12)