# Present evidence for the existence of your deity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737 "2012-04-23T19:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/221 "2012-04-24T18:29:13Z")
Now I’m being ornery about the flood. I withdraw the statement. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/222 "2012-04-24T18:29:15Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I’m going against my own advice, but at the end of the ice age seawater did rise nearly 24 meters. That’s kind of a flood. Sorry. The problem with this - and the local flood - is how does this demonstrate that God exists or that anything supernatural happened? One could suppose that a local flood (or what you are putting forth) happened and the event was later mythologized. In other words, this would not be evidence for God. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/223 "2012-04-24T18:32:45Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > The problem with this - and the local flood - is how does this demonstrate that God exists or that anything supernatural happened? > > One could suppose that a local flood (or what you are putting forth) happened and the event was later mythologized. > > In other words, this would not be evidence for God. No, that’s why I withdrew the statement. It does not prove anything. I agree. But when I see statements like, there is no evidence of a global flood, I have to comment. Again, it is off topic and I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/224 "2012-04-24T18:33:44Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > No, that’s why I withdrew the statement. It does not prove anything. I agree. But when I see statements like, there is no evidence of a global flood, I have to comment. Again, it is off topic and I apologize. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Blkshp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blkshp/32/7135_2.png) [@Blkshp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blkshp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/225 "2012-04-24T18:38:39Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Now ask your deity to do something specific and improbable that you DON’T have control over personally, and get back to us. For example, have your deity reveal to you which word Trinopus has tagged in his dictionary. The point is that I don’t ask for such things. I can only change things that are within my power to change. I’m not looking for next week’s lottery numbers. The OP asked for my evidence of the existence of my deity and I offered it. My experience has provided me with evidence that is acceptable to me. There’s no reason that I should expect or even desire that you – or anyone else-- should accept it. I can only speak to my own experience. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/226 "2012-04-24T18:38:54Z")
What happened to the fundamentalists? This thread was so much more fun with them involved? But I suppose we hit a dead end. You can change a person’s opinions (though with much difficulty) but you can’t change their beliefs. Not without overwhelming evidence and I suppose that’s what got us here in the first place. I enjoyed the talk. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/227 "2012-04-24T18:44:46Z")
I respect your faith and think it is a personal thing and that you shouldn’t give that up. I would suggest that the problem stems from claims that you can prove it to someone else. You can’t. For someone else to believe they would have to have the experience and interpret it in the same way you do. But reality is a fuzzy thing. We all see the world through our bias and filter reality this way. No two people see it exactly the same way. So what is reality? Can it be defined? I would suggest that there is a physical reality but that no one percieves it in it’s truest form. Whatever that is. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/228 "2012-04-24T18:45:03Z")
> [@Blkshp](#): > > The point is that I don’t ask for such things. I can only change things that are within my power to change. I’m not looking for next week’s lottery numbers. The OP asked for my evidence of the existence of my deity and I offered it. My experience has provided me with evidence that is acceptable to me. There’s no reason that I should expect or even desire that you – or anyone else-- should accept it. I can only speak to my own experience. My question to this is, how do you know that your experience originates from whichever deity you believe it does? Could it not be the result of an evil entity trying to fool you into believing in the wrong God? For example, what if it’s Ahiriman, attempting to convince you that your beliefs are correct. This would upset the true God, Ahura Mazda, and condemn you to oblivion. So Ahiriman has a reason for deceiving you - how can you tell that your experience is not from him as opposed to your God? ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/229 "2012-04-24T18:47:07Z")
I am a bit saddened that no one addressed the mathmatical aspect of the universe. Because I’d like to hear that arguement. How can everything in existence be explained through math? How would complete chaos become so ordered? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/230 "2012-04-24T18:49:42Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I am a bit saddened that no one addressed the mathmatical aspect of the universe. Because I’d like to hear that arguement. How can everything in existence be explained through math? How would complete chaos become so ordered? It’s a dead end argument. If the math _didn’t_ add up, some religionists would use it as proof that only God coulda dunnit. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/231 "2012-04-24T18:53:41Z")
another idea. The concept of string theory that proposes up to eleven dimensions and that we are only aware of four. (Time being the fourth). It could be that spiritual beings or what we refer to as spiritual beings exist in the realm of the higher dimensions and they can inneract with us? But we can’t see them because we can’t get out of our limited view of reality. These beings could call themselves gods and use our emotional energy as a power source. Ritual creates powerful emotions that could exists outside of our bodies. My point is that there’s a lot more to the story than we know! ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/232 "2012-04-24T18:59:12Z")
Someone brought up the Matrix. And in fact the universe does resemble a computer simulation. What about the halographic principle? I’m stringing these two together when they aren’t supposed to be, but again they suggest more to the story. Sorry, I’m in between projects and stirring the pot. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/233 "2012-04-24T19:00:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Head slamming into table]_Bang!_[/Head slamming into table] > This thread ins’t about atheists disproving the Bible. > This thread is for religionists to display any evidence they may have as to the existence of their deity of choice. You need to wear a large, rubber hat. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/234 "2012-04-24T19:02:48Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > another idea. The concept of string theory that proposes up to eleven dimensions and that we are only aware of four. (Time being the fourth). It could be that spiritual beings or what we refer to as spiritual beings exist in the realm of the higher dimensions and they can inneract with us? But we can’t see them because we can’t get out of our limited view of reality. These beings could call themselves gods and use our emotional energy as a power source. Ritual creates powerful emotions that could exists outside of our bodies. My point is that there’s a lot more to the story than we know! Better mathemagicians and/or scientimists than I might be able to poke holes in your theory…but at least you’re giving it an honest try. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/235 "2012-04-24T19:05:25Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > How can everything in existence be explained through math? How would complete chaos become so ordered? Because describing the universe is what math is supposed to do? I’m a little confused as to how anybody’s supposed to address this. > [@TravisT](#): > > It could be that spiritual beings or what we refer to as spiritual beings exist in the realm of the higher dimensions and they can inneract with us? The dimensions that are being discussed are not alternate planes of existence like something in a sci-fi movie. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/236 "2012-04-24T19:12:52Z")
[nitpick] Branes, if they exist, are probably sci-fi level alternate realities. Maybe.[/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/237 "2012-04-24T19:14:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Because describing the universe is what math is supposed to do? I’m a little confused as to how anybody’s supposed to address this. > The dimensions that are being discussed are not alternate planes of existence like something in a sci-fi movie. I admit I don’t understand higher dimensions. So what are they? I’ve simplified it in my limited brain to be like a cartoonist in the three dimensional world and his cartoon in the two dimensional world. I will do more research on the subject. I’m a fiction writer not a scientist, so forgive my need to simplify my reality into concepts that resemble tangible scenarios. Bad way to approach science I know.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/238 "2012-04-24T19:15:22Z")
I couldn’t really describe it either. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/239 "2012-04-24T19:23:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Nope. You were also one of the posters to offer the Bible up as a cite for your claims. The Bible was offered as having some sort of veracity, and it was shown to be fictional. Not, of course, that I expect you to do anything but change the subject and include some ignorant, silly snark about “atheists!!!” > As for “striking similarities”, you are rather obviously trading in fallacies. Given that we have similar but divergent stories around certain archetypes in human history, and given that we have physical evidence proving that there was never a global flood, we can either posit a magical Trickster God who hid the evidence, or recognize that humans have a tendency to tell stories about certain archtypes. > > And despite more of your vacuous snark at “atheists”, the fact is that the Bible is full of all sorts of bits of counter-factual nonsense. Pointing to the flood is just a good way of showing that the book is fictional and, therefore, cannot be seriously presented as a work of fact. > > Predictably, of course, you are employing your standard set of double standards. The Bible is evidence of the existence of God, because (you claim) of its prophecies and such, and they’re accurate. The fact that an entire, major narrative structure in the text is 100% fictional doesn’t have any bearing on the subject. Just like the human body’s “perfection” evinces God’s handiwork, but any flaws can be handwaved away because _hey look over there!!!_ The claim that the Bible is fictional is just another biased atheistic nonsense. Fine, strip away the spiritual teachings and supernatural events, and you still at least have a remarkable historical document that meets every acceptable measure of validity for ancient history. The Bible even goes to the trouble of creating detailed geneologies to show clearly how Jesus Christ was born from the bloodline running through Abraham and David. What more do you people want? But of course, atheists will harp and harp on the flood story because that’s their “Oh gotcha” event. So what? I’m suppose to disregard the entire Bible because one story doesn’t jive with what modern science claims? Science is flawed, God is not. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/240 "2012-04-24T19:28:21Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > The claim that the Bible is fictional is just another biased atheistic nonsense. I would agree that the claim that the Bible is **completely** fictional is nonsense. There is some truth contained in it. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Fine, strip away the spiritual teachings and supernatural events, and you still at least have a remarkable historical document that meets every acceptable measure of validity for ancient history I don’t think I’d go this far. Even without the supernatural tales, some of the ‘history’ presented in the Bible is at odds with what archeology has uncovered. Take the exodus for instance. Personally I’m not even sure that a naturalistic reading of the passion account (ie, up to the death of Jesus) is entirely historical. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > The Bible even goes to the trouble of creating detailed geneologies to show clearly how Jesus Christ was born from the bloodline running through Abraham and David. What more do you people want? Well, it certainly presents two fundamentally at odds geneologies of Jesus. Apologists have often given the implausible solution that one was from Joseph and the other from Mary, but this is ad hoc rationalization without an ounce of support from what the ancient Jews actually believed. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > But of course, atheists will harp and harp on the flood story because that’s their “Oh gotcha” event. So what? Again, I don’t really care about the flood. The Bible contains other improbable events, such as the ability to influence the progeny of one’s livestock by placing stripped sticks in the river while they mate. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > I’m suppose to disregard the entire Bible because one story doesn’t jive with what modern science claims? Science is flawed, God is not. Why assume the Bible has anything to do with God? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=13)