# Present evidence for the existence of your deity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737 "2012-04-23T19:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/341 "2012-04-25T21:12:54Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > At any rate, I think “atheist” is the wrong nomenclature. “Anti-theists” are those that would reject Christian dogma even if incontrovertible evidence demonstrated its veracity, purely on personal grounds. Generally atheists don’t have any particular bias against Christianity. It’s just that some U.S. Christians are unable to view atheism as anything other than a rejection of their particular god and faith. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/342 "2012-04-25T21:25:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Generally atheists don’t have any particular bias against Christianity. It’s just that some U.S. Christians are unable to view atheism as anything other than a rejection of their particular god and faith. Why would we think otherwise when you people gripe and moan about things like cross memorials? It’s a freaking symbol. It’s not going to hurt you. Atheists want to wipe every trace of Christianity from public view. > **[Atheist Group Wants Memorial Cross Removed From RI Fire Station](https://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-group-wants-memorial-cross-removed-from-ri-fire-station-73874/)** > > An atheist organization is demanding that a Rhode Island city move a memorial cross from public property, deeming it a violation of the Establishment Clause ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/343 "2012-04-25T21:30:37Z")
Ahem: > [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, it’s all possible fiction - it may not be true. It has to be supported by evidence and potentially revised when it’s contradicted by better evidence. Only then is it going to be widely accepted. I get the sense you think everybody else so blinded by bias against you that they can’t compose an argument or think through what they are saying. Historical documents of all kinds have to be examined and backed up by other sources. > [@Marley23](#): > > Do you agree with this? The idea is that _all_ historical assertions need to be supported by other evidence such as independent sources and archeology. If so, is there are a reason the Bible should be treated differently - for example items like the Genesis story and the genealogy of Jesus should be taken as factual even though the Biblical accounts are contradictory? Should Exodus should be taken as factual despite the lack of expected historical evidence? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/344 "2012-04-25T21:34:41Z")
I don’t know of any atheists who want to rid any symbols of Christianity from public view. On the other hand, we _do_ object when _our_ government, the government of all of us citizens, shows favoritism to Christianity. Not only does it make us feel like second-class citizens, we’re guaranteed by our Constitution that it won’t do that. So if you can find a single example of atheists objecting to publicly-seen Christianity that’s not a case of the government doing it, I’ll listen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/345 "2012-04-25T21:35:18Z")
> [@blinkie](#): > > First I don’t believe most of what’s in the Bible. Second, the fact that I believe that there is one creator for all of mankind shouldn’t threaten you, the God I believe in loves you whether you believe in him. > > Why doesn’t he cure me? Who knows, while he’s at it why doesn’t he make me a millionaire? > > I’ve only met him once. It was when 5 doctors declared me legally dead. Next time I meet Him I’ll ask. That is if I get my voice back. > > I’m glad you think it’s “sweet.” Taking care of a totally paralyzed person is anything but sweet. 1. What is or isn’t in the Bible has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. 2. I don’t feel threatened. 3. I am asking for evidence that supports the belief in _your_ deity. Could you please explain why your evidence pertains only to the god you believe in? Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/346 "2012-04-25T21:40:16Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Why would we think otherwise when you people gripe and moan about things like cross memorials? It’s a freaking symbol. It’s not going to hurt you. Atheists want to wipe every trace of Christianity from public view. Without any reference to your thought process, I will note that such thought processes in general form the root of virtually all forms of bigotry, intolerance and racism. It’s a very simple pair of two very simple fallacies. The fallacy of composition comes into play when you take a small, non-representative sample of a group, and attempt to claim that the entire group is the same as that item. It’s fairly obvious to us that this would be a fallacy if we use inanimate objects, such as cars. “Your car must be all oily, there is oil in the oil filter.” is as much of a logical error, and for the same reasons, as “Some people who happen to share [identifying marker(s)] did something bad, therefore everybody in [identifying marker(s)]'s group is an asshole!” The fallacy of division comes into play when you take what is or may be true about a group in aggregate, and apply it to individuals. Again, it’s clear to us that it’s a fallacy if we use an example like a car. “If you take a lug nut off your car, that must be a really fast lug nut because I just saw you driving your car at about 100 miles an hour!” And however, for some reason some people do not make the connection, and don’t understand why having a generalization in your head for “how atheists are” does not then allow you to intuit the mental or emotional life of any given atheist. Now, the issue of what types of displays are valid on public land is a side topic (and I won’t participate in that hijack), but I will point out that you are using the fallacy of composition to build a fictitious “Atheists” group and then the fallacy of division to claim that individual atheists are fungible within that group as exemplars. It’s a fallacy sandwich. Cut it out. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/347 "2012-04-25T23:53:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Generally atheists don’t have any particular bias against Christianity. It’s just that some U.S. Christians are unable to view atheism as anything other than a rejection of their particular god and faith. Well to be fair some are pretty vocal about how evil religion is. I tend to be of the view that what you believe is between you and your higher power. Is the bible or any great sacred book written by god and should be taken as literal? No freaken way, these books have been and continue to be written by men and women trying to wrap their minds around the universe. In the story of Jesus we glimpse the early days of our culture. The central message is that we must move from selfish love to self less love, the stories [new testament] seem to help explain this. Again I have an innate feeling that their is a higher power, you can call it whatever you like but I use the Christian tradition as my framework. But hey some of my best friends are Buddhists, Atheists, Sikhs, Moslems and I even know a Baptist [truth be known he is a bit of a looney] and they all have their paths to follow… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/348 "2012-04-26T00:00:05Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Well to be fair some are pretty vocal about how evil religion is. That’s a criticism of all religions, not Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/349 "2012-04-26T00:20:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s a criticism of all religions, not Christianity. Yeah that’s what I meant if not said. To a large degree I don’t disagree with some of the view points but to say that religion is the cause of wars [as a lot do] is a bit lazy. Religious entities are groups of humans who may [many times falsely] rationalise violence through religion. We even see people invoking God as a reason for the middle east wars when we all know it is about economics and keeping certain governments in power. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/350 "2012-04-26T00:23:33Z")
In metaverse of infinite space, time, and permutations, the only possibility is that god has created us in an infinite number of contexts, and we have created god in return in an infinite number of contexts. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/351 "2012-04-26T00:34:28Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > To a large degree I don’t disagree with some of the view points but to say that religion is the cause of wars [as a lot do] is a bit lazy. Religious entities are groups of humans who may [many times falsely] rationalise violence through religion. We even see people invoking God as a reason for the middle east wars when we all know it is about economics and keeping certain governments in power. I tend to agree, actually: not that I think religion is “really” peaceful, but I think in most cases, the cynical and greedy have used religion as a figleaf to justify wars that had much more temporal goals. One of the possibly scary parts about modern Islamic terrorism is that in some ways it might be an exception. But that’s a topic for another thread. > [@jackdavinci](#): > > In metaverse of infinite space, time, and permutations, the only possibility is that god has created us in an infinite number of contexts, and we have created god in return in an infinite number of contexts. Ooops! Thread’s over, guys- turns out there was only one possibility all along! ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/352 "2012-04-26T01:08:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I tend to agree, actually: not that I think religion is “really” peaceful, but I think in most cases, the cynical and greedy have used religion as a figleaf to justify wars that had much more temporal goals. One of the possibly scary parts about modern Islamic terrorism is that in some ways it might be an exception. But that’s a topic for another thread. It certainly is. Education is the key to it all, many people who understand and have studied religion tend to have a wide set of beliefs and are much more accepting of other view points. Please note studying One Book does not make you educated. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/353 "2012-04-26T03:24:10Z")
Y’all aren’t seriously wondering why yer not gettin’ many responses, are you? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/354 "2012-04-26T06:00:14Z")
At 8 pages? Doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/355 "2012-04-26T06:18:38Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > And there is certainly evidence for the destruction of Jericho which occured not long after the Exodus. Jericho hadn’t even been an inhabited city for at least a century at the supposed time of the Exodus. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/356 "2012-04-26T07:18:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > At 8 pages? Doubt it. 8 pages of sycophantic back slapping. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/357 "2012-04-26T07:51:06Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > 8 pages of sycophantic back slapping. What about 13 years of claims that there is evidence for the existence of gods that we just aren’t smart enough to understand and/or worthy of viewing? This thread wasn’t created in a vacuum-please reread the OP. By the way, there is no legitimacy in bitching that the evidence _would_ be presented…but why bother because us evil atheists(which apparently make up 99.99% of the board) would only dismiss it. Present the evidence, get our _actua_l reaction to it instead of the one you are imagining, _then_(if called for) do your bitching. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/358 "2012-04-26T12:55:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What about 13 years of claims that there is evidence for the existence of gods that we just aren’t smart enough to understand and/or worthy of viewing? This thread wasn’t created in a vacuum-please reread the OP. > By the way, there is no legitimacy in bitching that the evidence _would_ be presented…but why bother because us evil atheists(which apparently make up 99.99% of the board) would only dismiss it. Present the evidence, get our _actua_l reaction to it instead of the one you are imagining, _then_(if called for) do your bitching. The fact that you immediately dismissed my personal experiences as lies is enough proof that you will auto-reject any pro-Christian evidence. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/359 "2012-04-26T13:03:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Without any reference to your thought process, I will note that such thought processes in general form the root of virtually all forms of bigotry, intolerance and racism. It’s a very simple pair of two very simple fallacies. > > The fallacy of composition comes into play when you take a small, non-representative sample of a group, and attempt to claim that the entire group is the same as that item. It’s fairly obvious to us that this would be a fallacy if we use inanimate objects, such as cars. “Your car must be all oily, there is oil in the oil filter.” is as much of a logical error, and for the same reasons, as “Some people who happen to share [identifying marker(s)] did something bad, therefore everybody in [identifying marker(s)]'s group is an asshole!” > > The fallacy of division comes into play when you take what is or may be true about a group in aggregate, and apply it to individuals. Again, it’s clear to us that it’s a fallacy if we use an example like a car. “If you take a lug nut off your car, that must be a really fast lug nut because I just saw you driving your car at about 100 miles an hour!” And however, for some reason some people do not make the connection, and don’t understand why having a generalization in your head for “how atheists are” does not then allow you to intuit the mental or emotional life of any given atheist. > > Now, the issue of what types of displays are valid on public land is a side topic (and I won’t participate in that hijack), but I will point out that you are using the fallacy of composition to build a fictitious “Atheists” group and then the fallacy of division to claim that individual atheists are fungible within that group as exemplars. It’s a fallacy sandwich. Cut it out. This happens here all the time when the subject is republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/360 "2012-04-26T13:11:38Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > The fact that you immediately dismissed my personal experiences as lies is enough proof that you will auto-reject any pro-Christian evidence. I’m sorry but I do not think this is fair. You have attempted to put forth other evidences that support your religious beliefs and we have put up criticisms of those evidences. You either drop the argument or you accuse us of rejecting them merely because we are atheists. What about your experiences are necessarily supernatural? You’ve mentioned, erroneously, that only Christians have ‘miraculous’ healing and life changing events. Either you are not well informed on people of other religions or you simply choose to ignore their experiences. In either case, for you to then comment on Czarcasm’s immediate dismissal is grossly hypocritical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=19)