# Present evidence for the existence of your deity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737 "2012-04-23T19:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/421 "2012-04-26T17:13:37Z")
Last time – and I’m only doing this because this has been a high-volume thread: > [@Marley23](#): > > So here is what I am going to do: all these other hijacks of the thread are over. They can be taken to another thread or dropped, but that’s it. This thread is about evidence for deities, not the opinions of atheists or anything else. If you believe in a deity, you can post evidence and that evidence can be discussed. That includes discussions of the existence of Jesus, the Bible, and everything else unless it is offered as direct evidence of the existence of any deity. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/422 "2012-04-26T17:17:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I agree that it falls somewhat in the “evidence” category…although it is much like saying that the winner in a marathon might have been helped along by God, even though the race was going to have a winner whether God helped or not. I wouldn’t go quite that far, since there’s no a priori reason to think that any group will necessarily “win.” I would say it’s more like a guy who claims to be a great stock-picker who does indeed make a fortune as a day-trader simply by analyzing patterns in stock charts. It’s very likely that he’s either just lucky or cheating. On the other hand, his success is weak evidence that he can indeed pick stocks on a short term basis. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/423 "2012-04-26T17:28:47Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Quite possibility. Catholics hold to a lot of beliefs that are simply not in the Bible and married in paganism. So Catholics aren’t Christians then? As to ‘married in paganism’, are we to believe you reject the virgin birth? The early Jews considered that a very pagan idea that was inserted into a faith that sprung from Judaism. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Where did you get your PHd in geology, archaeology and science? Funny how atheists come off like they are infallible and experts in all forms of knowledge I don’t think you get it - when I make claims about those topics, I’m deferring to the experts (I posted some stuff from experts in those fields - ie, the link refuting the global flood). You on the other hand are trying to assess the mental state of someone you’ve never met, based on nothing more than your own intuition it appears. Also, I’m not pretending to be infallible here, I welcome an counter arguments that are valid. “Your an atheist so you can’t see reason”, which is essentially your position is not a valid argument. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Too much weak sauce to dip my carrot stick in. Your inability to deal with counter arguments is noted. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Only God knows the condition of a man’s heart. He could simply be a misguided Christian. The inference being that anything **you believe** is Christian and anything outside of that is not Christian. Do you have any idea who Mike Licona is? > [@GEEPERS](#): > > I’m also aware that are many millions who call themselves Mormons and believe in a completely different Bible, yet call themselves Christians. I guess they missed that bit in Revelation 22:18. > Reply With Quote Yet they can defend their claims as well as you can. What does that tell you? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/424 "2012-04-26T17:31:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That includes discussions of the existence of Jesus, the Bible, and everything else unless it is offered as direct evidence of the existence of any deity. My bad, I’ll relent. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/425 "2012-04-26T17:33:45Z")
I have evidence for my deity, he speaks to us frequently, he chooses the Luminous Ones for our instruction and correction, that they might moderate our sins. Let us keep the First Calypso as the guide to our lives: Never go in against a Cecilian when death is on the line. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/426 "2012-04-26T17:55:39Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > My bad, I’ll relent. You’re welcome to PM me Meatros if you want a less restrictive conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/427 "2012-04-26T17:58:29Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > You’re welcome to PM me Meatros if you want a less restrictive conversation. As far as I know it’s only restricted to the topic itself, and you are more than welcome to start your own thread on any topic you choose. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/428 "2012-04-26T18:10:56Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > So you’re saying I’m wrong? That if advancement in science could one day prove that there existed a higher sentient consciosness that you still wouldn’t accept it? Sorry to speak for you there. I shouldn’t suggest what I don’t know. Maybe you would stick your head in the sand and deny it to the very end? I don’t know. My apologies. Sometime close-mindedness exists on both sides of the aisle, is what I can conclude for your indignation. Nope, I’m not saying any of that. It’s just that everything you’ve said so far in this thread has been indefensible crap, so when you say: > [@TravisT](#): > > I don’t mean to speak for the atheists, but I’ll be glad to hold you to your word. Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/429 "2012-04-26T18:30:10Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > You’re welcome to PM me Meatros if you want a less restrictive conversation. I do not think this is a restricted forum, it’s just as Czarcasm said, this thread has a narrower focus than what we’ve been going back and forth about. If you want to open up another thread on the trustworthiness of the Bible (or just the New Testament) I will probably participate (I’ve opened up a similar thread in the past). ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/430 "2012-04-26T18:59:28Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Nope, I’m not saying any of that. It’s just that everything you’ve said so far in this thread has been indefensible crap, so when you say: > > I’ll be glad to hold you to your word. Christ. So it is indefensible to say that both extreme sides of this debate actually have anything substantial to offer? It is indefensible to propose that you do not hold the answers to the every mystery there exists in our universe. I’ve been playing “Devil’s Advocate” for lack of a better term, to keep minds open to other possibilities. I find some of the comments arrogant and narrow sighted is all. A view I can readily defend, and do. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/431 "2012-04-26T19:10:09Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Nope, I’m not saying any of that. It’s just that everything you’ve said so far in this thread has been indefensible crap, so when you say: > [@TravisT](#): > > So it is indefensible to say that both extreme sides of this debate actually have anything substantial to offer? Take this discussion to another thread. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/432 "2012-04-26T19:39:04Z")
We’re being told to take it outside. LOL. Very well. I apologize. Here’s a link I would consider relevant to this thread however. Someone besides Dr. Goswami. His name is Michael Persinger. > **[Michael Persinger on non-local consciousness.](https://footnotes2plato.com/2011/05/14/michael-persinger-on-non-local-consciousness/)** > > Most of you have probably already heard of Michael Persinger. He is a distinguished and extensively published cognitive neuroscientist at Laurentian University in Ontario. He is best known for his … ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/433 "2012-04-26T19:43:14Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > We’re being told to take it outside. LOL. Very well. I apologize. Here’s a link I would consider relevant to this thread however. Someone besides Dr. Goswami. His name is Michael Persinger. > > [Michael Persinger on non-local consciousness. – Footnotes2Plato](http://footnotes2plato.com/2011/05/14/michael-persinger-on-non-local-consciousness/) This link is relevant to the thread topic if you think it provides evidence to the existence of a deity you believe in. Does it? ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/434 "2012-04-26T20:05:34Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > It may help to go into more detail about what we would consider valid evidence. Some of the Christians here keep saying that their personal experiences are a _kind_ of evidence, just maybe not convincing to the rest of us. Reminds me of when Lionel Hutz said something like “Well, your honor, we have hearsay and conjecture - those are _kinds_ of evidence.” > **The fact that the universe exists is not evidence that the Loch Ness Monster exists.** I hope we all can see this. Similarly, the fact that the universe exists is not evidence for a god. Not even shitty evidence - it’s just not evidence at all. The LOCH Ness Monster has no relationship to the universe. God does so your point fails. Next. > [@CurtC](#): > > **The fact that my tummy gurgles when I’m hungry is not evidence that the Loch Ness Monster exists.** Again, this should be clear to everyone, even if I belong to a religion that says that the Loch Ness Monster communicates with me by gurgling my tummy, it’s not evidence that the LNM is real when that happens. Not even shitty evidence. Similarly, when people have personal experiences that they think a god is communicating with them, it’s not evidence that this god actually exists. Just making a blanket statement with no basis is not evidence, sure. But there is quite a good basis for suggesting God communicates to people. I’ve seen God send the same communication to two different people like go see this person and pray for them. Can two people have the exact same hallucination at the same time? How did a complete stranger know exactly what problems I was having when he prayed for me that time at the singles group? If you have many many people claiming the same thing, the yes, it is an evidence worth exploring. > [@CurtC](#): > > **The fact that my uncle’s brother-in-law kicked his drug habit when he started worshiping the Loch Ness Monster is not evidence that the LNM exists.** People everywhere change their lives for all kinds of reasons, especially when they think they have a grander purpose to live for. However, this is not evidence that the thing they worship actually exists in the real world. No, but if many people, thousands are claiming the same experience, that would be evidence to suggestion there may be a relation. > [@CurtC](#): > > **The fact that New York City is a real place, and the Spiderman stories are set in NYC, is not evidence that the Spiderman stories are actually true.** Not even a _kind_ of evidence, not even shitty evidence. Similarly, actual place names mentioned in your holy book are in no way supportive of the stories in that book. How would you prove to an alien being that Spiderman never existed? Simple, we have documentation from Stan Lee showing that he created the character from his imagination. That’s why your Spiderman comparison doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/435 "2012-04-26T20:09:14Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Can two people have the exact same hallucination at the same time? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/436 "2012-04-26T20:12:25Z")
[[Warning reversed on further consideration.]] ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/437 "2012-04-26T20:16:13Z")
Geepers, if you wish to discuss the inerrancy or trustworthiness of the Bible, [here’s a thread that is already open](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=649537). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/438 "2012-04-26T20:16:19Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Just making a blanket statement with no basis is not evidence, sure. But there is quite a good basis for suggesting God communicates to people. I’ve seen God send the same communication to two different people like go see this person and pray for them. Can two people have the exact same hallucination at the same time? How did a complete stranger know exactly what problems I was having when he prayed for me that time at the singles group? If you have many many people claiming the same thing, the yes, it is an evidence worth exploring. If two different people came to me and told me that a mysterious voice told them to do something they would not normally do in the course of their day, I would consider it to be evidence that something out of the ordinary is happening, especially if it can be shown that one could not have communicated to the other beforehand. On the other hand, if you tell me a secondhand story about two anonymous people we don’t know and have no way to contact doing something at some unknown time,then no…it isn’t evidence-it’s a story you happen to believe. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/439 "2012-04-26T20:17:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This link is relevant to the thread topic if you think it provides evidence to the existence of a deity you believe in. Does it? I would say that like The Bell Theorem and EPR paradox, it suggests non-locality by someone besides our questionable Dr. Goswami. Non-locality suggests the presence of a connection between all things in the universe, and the diety that I believe in (or would like to believe in -still pending further review) would be the collection of all consciousness. The sum of the parts make up the whole and visa versa. Having said that, I am open minded enough to say, that if proven wrong I will accept it. I have stated that I have experienced things that cannot be explained other than pure coincedence with unbelievable timing. This I cannot prove and will not attempt to do so. So I want to believe there is something greater than our local existence and that is the deity that I feel a cosmic connections to. How’s that for a vague enough answer to a straight forward question? So yes. It’s worth presenting. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/440 "2012-04-26T20:21:44Z")
Bell’s Inequality, the Aspect Experiment, etc… They all show us that reality is fucking weird, and we don’t really understand what’s going on, or what ‘thingness’ really means. That does not, however, open the door to any general god-concept, let alone whichever specific god someone wants to shoehorn in. God of the Gaps is a fallacy no matter how surreal the gap in question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=23)