# Present evidence for the existence of your deity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737 "2012-04-23T19:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/441 "2012-04-26T20:23:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **GEEPERS** , I think four reminders is enough. I’m giving you a formal warning for ignoring my instructions. If you want to discuss **CurtC** ’s post or other issues, start your own thread or take the conversation to private messages. This specific thread is restricted to evidence of deities and the discussion of that evidence. Warning for what? My response was showing why his Lock Ness test for evidence doesn’t work. You know what, I’m fed up of you picking on me while completing ignoring your atheist friends who are grossly commiting the offenses you accusing me of doing. I’m done with this thread for good now so feel free to lock it or whatever. A Christian just can’t get a fair shake here when the mods are hardcore atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/442 "2012-04-26T20:28:50Z")
Two stories and a moral: 1. When I was about fifteen, I was waiting for the bus one cold wintry day, when all around me suddenly appeared glowing sparks in the air. They swirled and winked in and out of existence, shining an incandescent white. It was, quite literally, magical, and I was in total awe. I was, I believed, visited by some supernatural force. Wood spirits, perhaps? It happened again a few years later, when I was in the bathroom and I stood up from tying my shoe. And this time, I remembered that the first time it also happened right after I stood up after being bent over. It was a terrible, triumph-of-the-banal moment. The third time it happened, a few years later, I poked around online (or somewhere, I forget exactly where), and found out that this is a not-too-uncommon visual hallucination when some folks stand up suddenly: as the blood flows from their head, there’s some sort of short-circuit in their optical nerve. What I thought was magic–what I desperately wanted to be magic–what I thought had no other possible explanation–turned out later to have one. It turned out to have one that I didn’t know was even possible. 1. I teach magic tricks to third-graders. One of the most common ones is the uncle trick, y’know, where you reach behind your niece or nephew’s ear and pull out a coin. I always show my hands empty first, but because I’m not very good at it, I show them only the backs of my open hands, since the coin is palmed in my, well, palm. Recently, after I performed the trick on a third-grader, he turned in amazement to tell a friend what had happened. “Mr. Dorkness showed me his empty hands,” he said– **and showed his friends both sides of his hands to demonstrate** –“and pulled a quarter from my ear!” I’d done the trick on him about fifteen seconds earlier, and already he’d revised his memory to make my trick more amazing, because he wanted to believe in magic. Moral: When something magical happens, even if you cannot conceive of a possible explanation, there may be one you haven’t thought of. And when you remember that magical event, if you want it to be magical, you may be revising your memory to increase the magic of the occasion. So when folks offer me evidence from their own experiences that support their belief in God, I remember these two events, and take their evidence accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/443 "2012-04-26T20:31:58Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Warning for what? My response was showing why his Lock Ness test for evidence doesn’t work. Which is why I thought twice about the warning and withdrew it a few minutes ago. > [@](#): > > I’m done with this thread for good now so feel free to lock it or whatever. Just for the record: you do not get to decide if or when this thread gets closed. (If you’d started it, I’d take your input under advisement.) > [@](#): > > A Christian just can’t get a fair shake here when the mods are hardcore atheists. I am an atheist, and I also know **tomndebb** has explained to you more than once that he is not an atheist. I reject your description that I’m “hardcore” just because I don’t agree with you. That said, if you have any further comments or discussion about moderation, start a thread about it in ATMB. Don’t post about it further in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/444 "2012-04-26T20:40:46Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > . . . I’ve noticed that when people claim to have evidence for their religion, what they claim usually falls into one of these categories. When we skeptics brush them off, they often get indignant, saying that their statements may not be convincing to us (for whatever reason), but that they are evidence. I hope this shows you why we skeptics brush them off. We don’t believe that your personal experience of a relationship with god is evidence for his existence any more than you would believe that someone’s tummy gurgling is evidence that supports his belief in the Loch Ness Monster. It just doesn’t count as evidence at all. Your four examples, while very good, didn’t include “I saw the Loch Ness Monster with my very own eyes.” Some Christians (I’ve met a few) insist that they have a personal relationship with God (or Jesus) and have held personal conversations. I do have to say, this is a kind of evidence. It is very bad evidence. It’s useless to me, because God and Jesus maintain an icy silence whenever I ask them questions, and this is true for the vast majority of people I’ve ever asked about it. It’s a kind of evidence that can’t be independently assessed, or even verified. In experimental terms, there is no possible test that would tell me if the claimant is lying. There is no possible “double blind” protocol. I am an atheist – even a “strong” atheist – for a number of reasons. But I do want to try to be fair-minded enough to say that when my friend (and a very dear friend indeed) insists that she walks hand-in-hand with Jesus, that this is a form of evidence. In all of this, I think we are running up against the classical problem of definitions. I do include hearsay and gossip as evidence – but I also give them very little weight in ordinary life, and absolutely zero weight in scientific or courtroom affairs. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/445 "2012-04-26T20:42:33Z")
On a side note, there are some real problems with accepting personal testimony and interpretations… even if we get past the fact that once we accept supernatural beings then we must accept that supernatural beings can use their magic to impersonate each other and trick foolish humans. When it comes right down to it though, I don’t think that even our resident fundamentalists like Geepers actually buy the logic they’re trying to sell, I think they’re only using it in a bid to game the rhetoric and not in any sound epistemological quest. I suppose I could be proven wrong if Geepers said something like “Islamic revelations are proof that Mohammed really is God’s final prophet, Jesus was wrong, and I should convert.” Of course, something tells me Geepers wouldn’t say that. [Despite the silly level of politeness we’re supposed to show so as not to be nasty atheists.](http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=820#comic) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/446 "2012-04-26T20:49:01Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Problem is the audience would clearly know that such illustrations are works of fiction. Herman Melville and George Lucas never presented their works as anything other than fiction from their imagination. Your analogy doesn’t hold up. Jesus made up stories, such as the parable of the talents, or the parable of Lazarus and Dives. The people listening to him then – and those who read those stories now – knew and know that they were presented as fictional. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/447 "2012-04-26T20:54:05Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > . . . The Bible is also not historical fact. Some parts are laws, some parts are histories, some parts are parables, some parts are personal stories. All of it is true and divinely inspired and useful for understanding God. But if you do not try to understand which parts are which, you are denying the greatest commandment. Some is poetry – Psalms, for instance. And Job is pretty obviously a parable, not a literal historical account. But Job contains some of the greatest poetry in human history, and also contains some of the deepest and wisest insights into human nature. I’m an atheist, through and through, but would never discard the Bible. A wise man takes wisdom wherever he finds it. It’s just, as you note, taking the whole thing as a literal account is counter-productive. It would be something like going to Bethany to try to find the fig tree which Jesus caused to wither. What could conceivably be learned from that? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/448 "2012-04-26T20:57:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Last time – and I’m only doing this because this has been a high-volume thread: > That includes discussions of the existence of Jesus, the Bible, and everything else unless it is offered as direct evidence of the existence of any deity. Um… Argh… I am one of those people who responds to threads as I read the post, and so I have put up some responses before I saw this moderator’s ruling. Could you please excise any of my posts which should not have been posted? (Is there a formal rule against posting as one reads? Is it formally obligatory – as opposed to merely being a darn good idea – to read the whole thread and only then re-read and comment?) Apologies. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/449 "2012-04-26T21:07:30Z")
Well, by way of penance, you can read and report on the “Stupid Republican” thread in the Pit. Give us an analysis of any statistically relevant trends in syntax, stance, or ideation, with the attendant statistics to support. How does 8 am tomorrow sound? (Note: a “deconstructionist” approach to critical analysis is neither required nor encouraged.) ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/450 "2012-04-26T21:18:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Bell’s Inequality, the Aspect Experiment, etc… > They all show us that reality is fucking weird, and we don’t really understand what’s going on, or what ‘thingness’ really means. That does not, however, open the door to any general god-concept, let alone whichever specific god someone wants to shoehorn in. God of the Gaps is a fallacy no matter how surreal the gap in question. I don’t think allowing for the concept of God to be malleable is a fallacy. I believe in the collective consciousness and this is the beginning of what I choose to believe; that the entire universe and everything in it and beyond are all connected. If that’s a fallacy then so be it. I’m comfortable with it. I see the concept of Russian dolls or musical scales to apply to my understanding of the multiverse. Of course I cannot prove this, but no one asked for proof. Evidence by definition means a thing or things that are helpful in forming a conclusion or judgement. But then again judgement is a form of opinion is it not. And opinion comes from personal slant or bias, so to call it a fallacy is your opinion. I do not share it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/451 "2012-04-26T21:20:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Could you please excise any of my posts which should not have been posted? I’m not going to delete the posts. If there was another thread on the topic, I’d move them. Since there isn’t, please just read carefully and don’t do it again. > [@](#): > > Is there a formal rule against posting as one reads? Is it formally obligatory – as opposed to merely being a darn good idea – to read the whole thread and only then re-read and comment? No, but it’s appreciated and helps prevent situations like this. I’d suggest practicing with the multi-quote function. You can use that to reply to a bunch of posts at once after you’ve finished reading the thread. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/452 "2012-04-26T21:37:57Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I’m done with this thread for good now so feel free to lock it or whatever. How does that work? _You_ are done participating in **Czarcasm’s** thread, so it gets locked?😕 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/453 "2012-04-26T21:43:51Z")
Whenever I shout out “Goddammit” in anger, my dogs slink away. Every dog I’ve owned my entire life has done this, so I’m left assuming that they’re leaving because they’re worried that I’m about to be killed via lightning bolt or something, and they don’t want to be caught in the cross-fire. Other than that, I got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/454 "2012-04-26T22:38:29Z")
Here’s an interview with Michio Kaku. I don’t think we can question his reputation or his credibility. Maybe you can. The fact that more and more scientists I research support this view point suggests evidence that they find it possible for god to exist. > **[Dr Kiki Interviews Michio Kaku on the Topic of God - This Week in Science -...](https://www.twis.org/dr-kiki-interviews-michio-kaku-on-the-topic-of-god/)** > > This Week In Science’s own Dr.Kiki interviews world renowned physicist Michio Kaku ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/455 "2012-04-26T23:06:03Z")
“If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn’t much use.” – Robert Griffiths, physicist and winner of the Dannie Heineman Prize for Mathematical Physics. ---
**Author:** ![steveo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@steveo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steveo1)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/456 "2012-04-26T23:27:17Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > The evidence is going to all be the same, guys. Our planet is too perfect to have occured randomly. Life is complex to have happened randomly. Humans are special and have feelings and logic and no other species does, so that proves we were made special and not evolved. Life is meaningless without a God or an afterlife to believe in. I am more than just a bunch of chemical interactions, I have a soul, and that makes me feel good. The fact that bananas fit so perfectly in my hand and mouth, or that cows can turn grass into milk or blah, blah blah. > > For me, if there is any evidence that a God created everything, it’s the fact that we happen to exist on a planet with a moon that has the same apparent size as our sun, and we get beautiful solar eclipses that show off the corona of the sun. > > Because of the fact that moon sizes are so variable, that the sun is constantly growing, that planets with complex/intelligent life seem to be pretty rare as well, it is incredible that we happen to be ‘blessed’ with this particular phenomena. I imagine that if we ever do meet other intelligent life in the universe, they are going to be wowed getting to watch a solar eclipse when they visit Earth. > > There are probably countless other planets with life on them, some even intelligent life, but I doubt there are many where that intelligent life gets to grow up on a planet with total solar eclipses of just the right size to show off the corona, like we do. > > Then again, it may not be that rare of an occurance. I’m not an astronomer. > > Also, I’m an atheist so in this particular instance, I do believe we just got really lucky :). In a few million years, our sun will be larger than it is now (right?) and total solar eclipses just won’t happen anymore. says you. ---
**Author:** ![steveo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@steveo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steveo1)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/457 "2012-04-26T23:28:20Z")
This goes out to every one of you on this post: Says you. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/458 "2012-04-26T23:36:04Z")
Excellent rebuttal, sir. All I may say in response is “No U!” Play is to you sir, play is to you. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/459 "2012-04-26T23:36:57Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > How does that work? _You_ are done participating in **Czarcasm’s** thread, so it gets locked?😕 Unless, of course, you intend closure of the thread to be “evidence for the existence of your deity”!?! :eek: This could get interesting. Back on topic, as well! ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/460 "2012-04-26T23:53:42Z")
> [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](#): > > And, out of nowhere, but no believers have ever been able to even vaguely answer this one. Why are amputees never healed? If you really do believe that God heals people from various diseases, don’t you also wonder this? really this comic book view of god is annoying as hell to us who do not think that the big guy in the sky can heal all ills. The original teachings spoke of miraculous cures as parables. Once this is accepted then Scientists [which I am] and Christians [which I am] can discuss the true message of Christ. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > This thread hasn’t been fair. For the majority, I’ve been the sole Christian in this thread, and I don’t have the time or energy to respond to every criticism. I would love a discussion in a more even forum with roughly the same number of Christians and atheists. Sorry you are wrong see above. > [@TravisT](#): > > The difference is that science is open to new data where it would seem that religion is a closed debate. Anyone who claims something with absolutes is destined to be proven wrong at some point. never claimed that I have absolute answers to anything. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Are you serious? I’m claiming that the Bible is historical fact and God is indeed real. These many “Christians” certainly didn’t chime in to defend the word of God. > I don’t see how anyone can claim to be a Christian yet disagree on these basic tenents. Sorry Geepers just not your flavor of Christianity. I respect that you hold your views I just disagree with them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=24)