# Present evidence for the existence of your deity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737 "2012-04-23T19:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/461 "2012-04-27T00:04:25Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > really this comic book view of god is annoying as hell to us who do not think that the big guy in the sky can heal all ills. So you don’t believe in an omnipotent God? It’s not a “comic book view” to expect God to do something that should be well in His power. As it happens, humans can’t regenerate limbs so it is never attributed to God as a miracle. Nothing that _can’t_ happen is ever a witnessed miracle. Miracles are simply natural happenings that are erroneously attributed to God. > [@](#): > > The original teachings spoke of miraculous cures as parables. Once this is accepted then Scientists [which I am] and Christians [which I am] can discuss the true message of Christ. The true message of Christ is all well and good, but if you’re assuming God has no supernatural powers, why elevate Christ’s message above that of any primitive middle-eastern peacenik? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/462 "2012-04-27T00:37:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So you don’t believe in an omnipotent God? > > It’s not a “comic book view” to expect God to do something that should be well in His power. As it happens, humans can’t regenerate limbs so it is never attributed to God as a miracle. Nothing that _can’t_ happen is ever a witnessed miracle. Miracles are simply natural happenings that are erroneously attributed to God. > > The true message of Christ is all well and good, but if you’re assuming God has no supernatural powers, why elevate Christ’s message above that of any primitive middle-eastern peacenik? Miracles are those things that cannot be explained. The miracle of the universe is the big one. Why are we here etc, questions that cannot be answered today by science and probably although happy to be corrected may never be. Science deals with how, religion deals with why. You assume too much my good sir, I elevate the bible because I believe in it’s message and it has been an important influence on mine and I assume your culture but I do not dismiss the other great books that have helped shape the culture and peoples of this planet. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/463 "2012-04-27T00:40:37Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Miracles are those things that cannot be explained. The miracle of the universe is the big one. Why are we here etc, questions that cannot be answered today by science and probably although happy to be corrected may never be. > > Science deals with how, religion deals with why. > > You assume too much my good sir, I elevate the bible because I believe in it’s message and it has been an important influence on mine and I assume your culture but I do not dismiss the other great books that have helped shape the culture and peoples of this planet. Fair enough, although I think religion only asserts why, I’m unconvinced it has any authority behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/464 "2012-04-27T01:25:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, by way of penance, you can read and report on the “Stupid Republican” thread in the Pit. . . . Crikey! I’m gonna plead the 8th! ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/465 "2012-04-27T02:03:17Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > In metaverse of infinite … permutations, the only possibility is that … Say what? Care to have another shot at whatever you were trying to express? ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/466 "2012-04-27T02:10:25Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > You know, we have not one, but four written accounts about the life of Jesus, each are distinct writing styles and tell the story from completely realistic eyewitness testimony. \*\* No two witnesses report the event in the exact same way. I believe was done on purpose so people wouldn’t question the validity.\*\* But of course, there is no satisfying the hardcore skeptics. Are you really saying that the contradictions between the four gospels enhance their credibility? So, if they had all agreed with each other in all respects instead, that would have meant they were false? :dubious: In any case, if it was done “so people wouldn’t question the validity” it didn’t work very well, did it? You might expect an actual real omnipotent god to be a little more effective than that, mightn’t you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/467 "2012-04-27T02:15:49Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Science deals with how, religion deals with why. There is no “religion”-there are “religions”. Let me know if they ever come to a consensus on any of the big “Whys”, o.k.? That is one of the reasons I titled the thread thus. Evidence for one deity may not be evidence for another, so I wish to know why any evidence points to a _specific_ deity. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/468 "2012-04-27T07:23:42Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Say what? Care to have another shot at whatever you were trying to express? The only thing that really makes sense of all the various mysteries and contradictions in our various understandings and world views is that our particular universe and time line is just a tiny sliver of an infinite metaverse which is basically some sort of infinite mathematical wave function in which anything that can be conceived of exists somewhere in some form. Some godlike construct must have either arisen naturally or been created in many portions of the metaverse. If one hasn’t yet been involved in our universe, we will likely create it. Look at the great strides we’ve already made in transforming our environment to serve our needs, and extrapolate that far into the future. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/469 "2012-04-27T07:46:32Z")
I haven’t looked into the matter in depth, but I have difficulty conceiving of a universe (both near and far) without a [non-temporal first cause](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3025/is-there-a-god-revisited). So yes, God exists. Specifically, 1) I reject solipsism and 2) I affirm causality, so 3) God exists, at least as defined by Thomas Aquinas. That said, somebody claimed that the cosmological argument has been tried and was found wanting. [I haven’t made my way through the argument](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cosmological-argument/). Apologies if this point has been made. I skipped pages 3-9. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/470 "2012-04-27T10:44:22Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > … I gave one example of this when I was told to go forward to that altar, and a complete stranger prayed for my specific problems. Are you going to write that off as random concidence too? Random coincidence? Prolly not, but until you actually tell us your specific problems, so we can know if they are extremely common or very rare, it not really possible for us to tell if something interesting happened here or if you were simply [cold read](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading). Ya know, actually present your evidence. CMC fnord! I was cold read once. This guy just immediately seemed to know exactly where my back was bothering me. He even found places that hurt that I didn’t know were bothering me. Now it could be that some spinal deity whispered in his ear or it could be that since he has board certifications in Pain Medicine and Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation (that’s the FAAPMR after his MD) and he’s seen so many fucked-up spines that he really can just look at you and be pretty certain what’s wrong with your back. Personally I’m going with “Dr. K _is_ a spinal deity . . . and [steroid injections into my facet joints](http://www.bhpain.com/facet_joint_syndrome) are his preferred mode of worship”. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/471 "2012-04-27T11:28:12Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > The physics department isn’t much use. This is an appeal to authority. > [@Measure for Measure](#): > > That said, somebody claimed that the cosmological argument has been tried and was found wanting. Russell attacked it [here](http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p20.htm). I think that under propositional logic, the argument doesn’t hold up: but neither does an argument for objective morality. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/472 "2012-04-27T11:36:13Z")
I wouldn’t bring any physicist I know to a debate. None of them are comfortable with the verbal tricks needed to be a successful debater. They are accustomed to presenting the facts, and not with trying to convince others through discourse. No matter what the topic is, I would choose a philosophy professor or a lawyer to be my surrogate in a debate. Someone who makes their living through words. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/473 "2012-04-27T13:11:25Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Whenever I shout out “Goddammit” in anger, my dogs slink away. Every dog I’ve owned my entire life has done this, so I’m left assuming that they’re leaving because they’re worried that I’m about to be killed via lightning bolt or something, and they don’t want to be caught in the cross-fire. > > Other than that, I got nothing. I used to frequently take care of a Pomeranian. When I’d be playing a video game and get killed and yell blasphemous profanities at the screen, the dog would jump into my lap and paw at my mouth. This could be taken by some as evidence that god was using the dog to tell me to stop blaspheming, since a benevolent omnipotent universe-creating deity obviously would care a great deal about the shape of sound waves that flap out of our breathing holes. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/474 "2012-04-27T13:35:30Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I wouldn’t bring any physicist I know to a debate. None of them are comfortable with the verbal tricks needed to be a successful debater. They are accustomed to presenting the facts, and not with trying to convince others through discourse. > > No matter what the topic is, I would choose a philosophy professor or a lawyer to be my surrogate in a debate. Someone who makes their living through words. I believe you’re missing the point of the quote. He’s suggesting that there are more atheists in the philosophy department than in the physics department. In other words, more and more physicists believe in a sentient consciousness. I call these credible, expert witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/475 "2012-04-27T13:44:56Z")
“If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn’t much use.” – Robert Griffiths, physicist and winner of the Dannie Heineman Prize for Mathematical Physics. I thought that the debate part was significant, not the relative abundance of atheism in a department. Silly me. But that could still just indicate that the philosophers have actually thought about the question, while physicists have not bothered to do so. People who think about the existence of God may be more likely to develop doubts than people who remain unexamined social church-goers regardless of their job title. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/476 "2012-04-27T14:08:59Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I believe you’re missing the point of the quote. He’s suggesting that there are more atheists in the philosophy department than in the physics department. In other words, more and more physicists believe in a sentient consciousness. I call these credible, expert witnesses. I’m not sure that’s the suggestion. I think there are more theists in the philosophy department then the physics department. In a [survey on Philosophers](http://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl), the results were: **God: theism or atheism?** Accept or lean toward: atheism 678 / 931 (72.8%) Accept or lean toward: theism 136 / 931 (14.6%) Other 117 / 931 (12.5%) Another factor is that the author of the quote is probably suggesting that God is not something a physicist could test, therefore the question is not relevant to physicists. Philosophers can and do argue about **everything** … ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/477 "2012-04-27T14:16:46Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I believe you’re missing the point of the quote. He’s suggesting that there are more atheists in the philosophy department than in the physics department. In other words, more and more physicists believe in a sentient consciousness. I call these credible, expert witnesses. Not unless they can provide evidence, and actually exist. Believers have a long history of lying and claiming that scientists who are atheists are religious; unless these physicists he claims are theists come forth and say so I’m skeptical that they actually exist. And I’ve always heard that physicists are heavily atheist (biologists even more so). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/478 "2012-04-27T14:19:10Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > The only thing that really makes sense of all the various mysteries and contradictions in our various understandings and world views is that our particular universe and time line is just a tiny sliver of an infinite metaverse which is basically some sort of infinite mathematical wave function in which anything that can be conceived of exists somewhere in some form. You’re welcome to your opinion, but insisting it’s the only thing that makes sense is not convincing and really not true. In fact I’m not sure your explanation even makes sense. > [@TravisT](#): > > I believe you’re missing the point of the quote. I’m not sure he is, but it’s not relevant regardless. Assume physicists are likely to believe in a god. Does that mean the best evidence cutting edge physics supports the existence of a god? Does it mean our current, always-evolving view of the evidence points one way or the other? Does it mean physicists are drawn from particular backgrounds and might be predisposed to that belief? Does it mean physicists keep their scientific and religious views separate? This is just an appeal to authority and not a serious argument anyway, but the conclusion you are drawing is not the only one that can be drawn. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/479 "2012-04-27T15:26:15Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I believe you’re missing the point of the quote. He’s suggesting that there are more atheists in the philosophy department than in the physics department. In other words, more and more physicists believe in a sentient consciousness. I call these credible, expert witnesses. I suspect that your inference is exactly 100% wrong. I have never seen any evidence that physicists are particularly inclined toward religious belief. And a claim, (or inference), that “more and more physicists believe in a sentient consciousness” should really be backed up by an actual survey. I doubt that it is true. I suspect that the statement simply meant that philosophy types are more likely to argue a point while, in general, physicists tend to be so absorbed in their math and experiments that they rarely bother to give any thought to the matter of the divine. (I do know of a couple of physicists who have engaged in philosophical and even theological ruminations, but they are notable for their rarity, not for being typical.) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/480 "2012-04-27T16:12:50Z")
I worship the Almighty Dollar, and I’ve got a wad of bills to prove it’s existence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=25)