# Present evidence for the existence of your deity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737 "2012-04-23T19:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/81 "2012-04-24T14:11:49Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > More biased ignorant talk here. This amounts to a handwave. The ancients, not just the ancient Hebrews, believed that the ‘sky’ was a firmament - a dome. If they didn’t, then Jesus’s ascension makes very little sense. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Yea , certainly mankind can easily just scatter a culture to the four winds, and then bring them back together. Oh yea, lets put them through the holocaust to purposely fullfill that Bible prophecy. So you are saying that God needed to slaughter millions of Jews in order to prompt them into forming the modern state of Israel? That’s horrendous. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/82 "2012-04-24T14:12:17Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, I’m saying that because some things are wrong, it throws into question the idea that the bible is supernaturally guided. God presumably knew that the sky wasn’t a solid dome. He could have passed that information down. How about God didnt think the current populace had the cerebral capacity to understand the technical description of the atmosphere? Think about having a hand gun from today back then. People might believe it was sound that caused the hole. They hear it, and a hole appears. They dont see the bullet and dont have the technology to understand it. > [@](#): > > Since there is nothing in the bible that shows supernatural insight, it’s far, far, more likely that it’s a holy book, like countless other holy books. Just a cultural snapshot of some primitive men living in a particularly backwards slice of the Roman Empire. The Bible is broken into personal accounts and history. > [@](#): > > And the moral teachings of the bible are largely repugnant. People pretend that it’s some kind of exceptional moral guide, but what does it teach? Slaves should obey their masters, rapists get to marry their victims, women are disgusting and should be cast out during menses, kill gay people, kill infants, take virgins as war-prizes, yada yada. Old Testament and New Testament are different. Additionally, the Bible taught that we must live within the laws of the times. Many slaves were Jews. While slavery itself may be wrong, doing what your master says while youre a slave will keep you safer from harm. If youre free, dont have slaves of your own. Example You own me as a slave and I am a Jew. Youre not likely to say that because my God says owning me is wrong, so you will set me free. So God tells me to listen to you. This advice is because it is the life I have and it is the rules I am living in. If obeying you doesnt disobey God, then I should obey. > [@](#): > > Obviously there are useful and good things in the bible, but that’s because most people are decent enough. And a book that is intended to keep people on the straight and narrow, will by necessity have some wisdom in it. That doesn’t make it magical. In my previous response in first quote, I used a hand gun as an example. Back then, that would seem magical. Much of what we have today, would seem magical. TV, Computers, flying et al. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/83 "2012-04-24T14:12:58Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Then you would easily claim photo manipulation. The reason there is no evidence is because atheists can always have an escape route. I was thinking video, it’s much, much harder to manipulate video evidence of stuff close up. But of course, you never saw a demon, since they don’t exist. > [@](#): > > If you desperately want to not believe in something, you’ll find a way. Like you and evolution? > [@](#): > > This is why I have a very low opinion of atheists. You don’t know brother Doyle, and I find it pretty offensive that you claim he is a liar. He doesn’t have to be a liar. He could just be someone who something random happened to. There are going on seven billion of us. Some people are going to have unlikely events happen to them. That said, he’s probably bullshitting. Certainly more likely than God intervening in getting his daughter a flower when Doyle had the power to do it himself easily. So God manipulates the situation to get that little girl a flower, and on the same day he allowed tens of thousands of children to die of starvation. Your God is kind of an asshole. > [@](#): > > Doyle performs for non-Christian audiences as well, and doesn’t tell the story or preach. His music alone is incredible and connects with audiences. He didn’t need to invent this story. You’d be hard pressed to find a non-Christian audience in America, something like 75% of the country is Christian. In any case, sure, he didn’t need to lie, and maybe he didn’t, but a random coincidence doesn’t prove God. What if a Hindu was on a train that derailed and survived with no injury. Is that proof that the Hindu Gods exist? > [@](#): > > More biased ignorant talk here. Do you deny what I said? I said facts. It is factual that the people that wrote the bible thought the sky was a solid dome. It is factual that there is no evidence for the Exodus, it is factual that there was never a world-wide flood. These are facts. You can look them up. And instead of dealing with that, you just pretend they aren’t there. > [@](#): > > Yea , certainly mankind can easily just scatter a culture to the four winds, and then bring them back together. Oh yea, lets put them through the holocaust to purposely fullfill that Bible prophecy. So Hitler was doing God’s work? That’s a vile thing to suggest. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/84 "2012-04-24T14:26:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I only ask for evidence when a claim of evidence is made. The only game being played here is by those that believe that religion provides them a shield from having to back up their claims. I think you are confusing “evidence” with “proof”. If I say I feel God’s presence, that’s evidence. It’s not very good evidence, and it’s certainly not proof, but it is evidence. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/85 "2012-04-24T14:28:01Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Like you and evolution? I believe evolution is a tool of God personally. Im not a Bible literalist. _is that even a word_ > [@](#): > > That said, he’s probably bullshitting. Why do others have proof, and you can go to opinion? > [@](#): > > Your God is kind of an asshole. Wait until you meet him 😉 > [@](#): > > You’d be hard pressed to find a non-Christian audience in America, something like 75% of the country is Christian. Maybe, but you wouldnt me hard pressed to find someone who isnt a Christian in an audience > [@](#): > > Do you deny what I said? I said facts. You mean when you siad he was “likely lying” without any proof? > [@](#): > > So Hitler was doing God’s work? That’s a vile thing to suggest. I didnt see him say that. This is what devalues your posts. Rebuke what he says, dont make things up. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/86 "2012-04-24T14:29:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think you are confusing “evidence” with “proof”. If I say I feel God’s presence, that’s evidence. It’s not very good evidence, and it’s certainly not proof, but it is evidence. In many cases, 1st person accounts are considered evidence, even in scientific investigations. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/87 "2012-04-24T14:31:28Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > In many cases, 1st person accounts are considered evidence, even in scientific investigations. First person accounts of “feelings” would only be considered scientific evidence if there was no other plausible explanation. There can, by definition, be no scientific evidence or proof of God. Science does not, cannot, deal with the supernatural. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/88 "2012-04-24T14:31:55Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > I didnt see him say that. This is what devalues your posts. Rebuke what he says, dont make things up. He specifically stated: > [@](#): > > Oh yea, lets put them \*\*through the holocaust \*\*to purposely fullfill that Bible prophecy. What did **you** see him saying? ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/89 "2012-04-24T14:32:56Z")
There’s a reason why this is called The Straight Dope message board and not the Atheist Alliance message board. People come here for factual answers and opinions based on evidence. If there are a lot of non-believers here it’s because, for most people, that’s the ‘straight dope’. There’s just no evidence. GEEPERS, the list you give for evidence that there’s a god is not going to make us scratch our heads, and say; “Wow, maybe he’s right!” ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/90 "2012-04-24T14:33:32Z")
[QUOTE=Lobohan;14998287] I was thinking video, it’s much, much harder to manipulate video evidence of stuff close up. But of course, you never saw a demon, since they don’t exist. Like you and evolution? [/QUOTE] I see, so you have hardcore proof that everyone who has had a supernatural experience is either lying or insane, huh? I certainly wouldn’t put it past atheists to manipulate “scientific” evidence either. > [@Lobohan](#): > > He doesn’t have to be a liar. He could just be someone who something random happened to. There are going on seven billion of us. Some people are going to have unlikely events happen to them. We’re not talking about a random event. A woman that he never met was told by God to bring a white rose to the concert. Anyone with a non-biased perspective wouldn’t casually dismiss such a story as mere randomness. > [@Lobohan](#): > > That said, he’s probably bullshitting. Certainly more likely than God intervening in getting his daughter a flower when Doyle had the power to do it himself easily. So God manipulates the situation to get that little girl a flower, and on the same day he allowed tens of thousands of children to die of starvation. > > Your God is kind of an asshole. I understand that you need to believe that it is a BS story. Your comment only demonstrates a thinly veiled hatred of God. Reminds me of the atheist who finally admited that if God was real, he rather burn in hell than ever worship him. For once, I found honesty from an atheist. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Do you deny what I said? I said facts. It is factual that the people that wrote the bible thought the sky was a solid dome. It is factual that there is no evidence for the Exodus, it is factual that there was never a world-wide flood. These are facts. You can look them up. > > And instead of dealing with that, you just pretend they aren’t there. > > So Hitler was doing God’s work? That’s a vile thing to suggest. Show me a verse where the Bible talks about sky dome. You toss the term “fact” around loosely. Sorry, but you can not conclusively prove as fact something like the worldwide flood unless you personally witnessed the events. The topic wouldn’t be a matter of debate if it was factually disproven. Yet, of course, you ignore the many things the Bible gets right well before mankind figured it out. No surprise, I certainly wouldn’t expect an atheist to play fair. Ex. hydrologic cycle in Job 36:27-29 Earth is round - Isaiah 40:22 - and yes, the word “circle” translates as sphere. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/91 "2012-04-24T14:35:28Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > There’s a reason why this is called The Straight Dope message board and not the Atheist Alliance message board. People come here for factual answers and opinions based on evidence. If there are a lot of non-believers here it’s because, for most people, that’s the ‘straight dope’. There’s just no evidence. GEEPERS, the list you give for evidence that there’s a god is not going to make us scratch our heads, and say; “Wow, maybe he’s right!” Fine then, just admit that there is no possible evidence that will ever convince you, and let’s be done with it. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/92 "2012-04-24T14:35:44Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > In many cases, 1st person accounts are considered evidence, even in scientific investigations. I’m not sure what you mean. I would agree with John that personal experience is a type of evidence. I just don’t think it’s very good. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/93 "2012-04-24T14:37:40Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Sorry, but you can not conclusively prove as fact something like the worldwide flood unless you personally witnessed the events. The topic wouldn’t be a matter of debate if it was factually disproven. Well, actually, it has been factually disproved beyond reasonable argument. The fact that certain people still repeat it shows just what type of discussion this really is. Of course, you are yet again employing the same strange double standard. You put faith in a book written centuries ago, but we can’t look at actual evidence and draw a conclusion unless we “personally witnessed the events.” Heads you win, tails we lose. Must be because of them thar “atheists”. Ya know, like the one who you mentioned above, the one who believed in God. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/94 "2012-04-24T14:37:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > First person accounts of “feelings” would only be considered scientific evidence if there was no other plausible explanation. > > There can, by definition, be no scientific evidence or proof of God. Science does not, cannot, deal with the supernatural. Science at one time couldnt deal with DNA. It didnt have the tools. Even when DNA was discovered, Science determine it wasnt the genetic generator, and that proteins were. Science can be wrong. Science is only as accurate as the tools it has. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/95 "2012-04-24T14:38:46Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > What did **you** see him saying? Your interpretation is that Prophecy means God did it. All it means is God see’s it and warns of its coming. Not everything that happens is God. That doesnt mean God doesnt see it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/96 "2012-04-24T14:39:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There can, by definition, be no scientific evidence or proof of God. Science does not, cannot, deal with the supernatural. In what dictionary does this definition exist? If a claim is made of a deity doing anything anywhere any time in this universe, then it is possible that evidence exists of such an interaction. When a claim is made that the Natural has been effected in any way by the Supernatural, science gets to have a looksee. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/97 "2012-04-24T14:40:12Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean. I would agree with John that personal experience is a type of evidence. I just don’t think it’s very good. We agree that 1st person evidence can be discounted. But it is still evidence, and to discount it, you must have supporting evidence. The thing about 1st person evidence is that perception can skew how that evidence is related. This can steer conclusions based on opinion ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/98 "2012-04-24T14:40:17Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Fine then, just admit that there is no possible evidence that will ever convince you, and let’s be done with it. If god had the power to deceive us all with false evidence that contradicts with what’s presented to us in the bible, and appeared before us, then you might have a case. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/99 "2012-04-24T14:40:46Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > I believe evolution is a tool of God personally. Im not a Bible literalist. _is that even a word_ I wasn’t directing that at you. > [@](#): > > Why do others have proof, and you can go to opinion? Others need evidence, the dude said that God gave his little girl a flower. That’s a bold statement, since God lets people die in agony every single day. I’m not saying I have evidence he’s a liar, I’m saying he has no evidence that what he’s saying is true. Didn’t you read the part about how it might be a random occurrence? > [@](#): > > Wait until you meet him 😉 Thank you for assuming I’ll burn in hell forever and smiling about that. Particularly grotesque, that. > [@](#): > > Maybe, but you wouldnt me hard pressed to find someone who isnt a Christian in an audience Surely, but I was taking issue that in America there are a lot of non-Christian audiences. Especially for a treacly, feel good, tune my guitar, sort of dude. > [@](#): > > You mean when you siad he was “likely lying” without any proof? This betrays a common misconception. Dude is making a claim, that God gave his daughter a flower. Either he’s lying, he’s mistaken or God, in fact, gave his daughter a flower. Since there is otherwise no evidence for God, I’d go with the first two. > [@](#): > > I didnt see him say that. This is what devalues your posts. Rebuke what he says, dont make things up. He said: > [@](#): > > Oh yea, lets put them through the holocaust to purposely fullfill that Bible prophecy. Implying that God, via the bible, knew that the holocaust was going to happen, and let it come to pass. Ignoring that the bible certainly doesn’t say that, he’s suggesting that Hitler was necessary to fulfill prophecy. Mind you, this is for a supposedly omnipotent God, who doesn’t need to torture people if he doesn’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/100 "2012-04-24T14:43:46Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Show me a verse where the Bible talks about sky dome. Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [Here’s a fairly wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament) on it. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > You toss the term “fact” around loosely. Sorry, but you can not conclusively prove as fact something like the worldwide flood unless you personally witnessed the events. The topic wouldn’t be a matter of debate if it was factually disproven. Very little in this life can be known with the absolute certainty you seem to be demanding. We can be reasonably certain that a world wide flood did not occur, and for [several reasons](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html). > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Yet, of course, you ignore the many things the Bible gets right well before mankind figured it out. No surprise, I certainly wouldn’t expect an atheist to play fair. > > Ex. hydrologic cycle in Job 36:27-29 > > Earth is round - Isaiah 40:22 - and yes, the word “circle” translates as sphere. ? I’m not entirely sure what your point is here, many of these things were known for quite some time - for instance that earth was a sphere. That said, your interpretation of Isaiah is simply incoherent - it makes sense under the prior cosmology that I linked to, but not as you are putting it: 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=6)