# Present evidence for the existence of your deity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737 "2012-04-23T19:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/101 "2012-04-24T14:44:27Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, actually, it has been factually disproved beyond reasonable argument. The fact that certain people still repeat it shows just what type of discussion this really is. Of course, you are yet again employing the same strange double standard. You put faith in a book written centuries ago, but we can’t look at actual evidence and draw a conclusion unless we “personally witnessed the events.” > > Heads you win, tails we lose. > Must be because of them thar “atheists”. Ya know, like the one who you mentioned above, the one who believed in God. Ive seen discovery channel show that seemed to indicate that the area was covered in water that would match a Flood of the magnitude explained using science. Not sure of the shows name but they went to the peaks of the middle east to look for flood evidence in strata that dated back to a time when the flood might have occurred. The show seemed to conclude that the evidence existed that could support the statement. They didnt say it proved it happened conclusively. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/102 "2012-04-24T14:44:47Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Your interpretation is that Prophecy means God did it. All it means is God see’s it and warns of its coming. Not everything that happens is God. That doesnt mean God doesnt see it. So things can occur outside of God’s plan? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/103 "2012-04-24T14:46:43Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > We agree that 1st person evidence can be discounted. But it is still evidence, and to discount it, you must have supporting evidence. The thing about 1st person evidence is that perception can skew how that evidence is related. This can steer conclusions based on opinion It’s evidence of something (brain states, for instance), but not necessarily the supernatural. As to supporting evidence, there’s plenty of studies done on confabulation, temporal lobe seizures, etc. Eye witness testimony is shaky - it’s overturned in courts because it’s often unreliable. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/104 "2012-04-24T14:53:59Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I wasn’t directing that at you. I know. I just wanted you to know that there are those who are not literalists > [@](#): > > Others need evidence, the dude said that God gave his little girl a flower. That’s a bold statement, since God lets people die in agony every single day. I’m not saying I have evidence he’s a liar, I’m saying he has no evidence that what he’s saying is true. > > Didn’t you read the part about how it might be a random occurrence? Yes, but the possibility of random occurrence isnt proof it was. It is just a possibility > [@](#): > > Thank you for assuming I’ll burn in hell forever and smiling about that. Particularly grotesque, that. I didnt make that assumption. You called him an ass hole. The Bible says God is a vengeful God. Many would take that as an ass hole. > [@](#): > > Surely, but I was taking issue that in America there are a lot of non-Christian audiences. Especially for a treacly, feel good, tune my guitar, sort of dude. I dont know they guy he speaks of. > [@](#): > > This betrays a common misconception. Dude is making a claim, that God gave his daughter a flower. Either he’s lying, he’s mistaken or God, in fact, gave his daughter a flower. Since there is otherwise no evidence for God, I’d go with the first two. neither is evidence against God either so youre defaulting to a belief, not necessarily a truth. > [@](#): > > He said: > > Implying that God, via the bible, knew that the holocaust was going to happen, and let it come to pass. Ignoring that the bible certainly doesn’t say that, he’s suggesting that Hitler was necessary to fulfill prophecy. ] One of the definitions of a prophecy is a prediction of the future. This doesnt mean that God did it. It just means it is seen. God didnt “use” Hitler, satan did. > [@](#): > > Mind you, this is for a supposedly omnipotent God, who doesn’t need to torture people if he doesn’t want to. This is an omnipotent God who lets us live our lives by choices we make and then judges us by those choices. We are not puppets on strings in a theatre used to entertain God. We live our lives based on our choices. Those choices can negatively affect others. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/105 "2012-04-24T14:55:39Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > So things can occur outside of God’s plan? I personally dont see “The Plan” as detailed as many people interpret it. Jesus was a part of His plan. Me typing here on the internet isnt. My typing this response also doesnt stop His plan. Not every minutia of life has an effect ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/106 "2012-04-24T14:56:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In what dictionary does this definition exist? [This one.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/science) See 3b. The physical world. That is, the natural world. Science does not deal with the supernatural, which is not bound by physical laws. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/107 "2012-04-24T14:56:27Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Ive seen discovery channel show that seemed to indicate that the area was covered in water that would match a Flood of the magnitude explained using science. Yeah, that’s bullshit. There is zero evidence, and substantial counter-evidence, for the claim that there was ever a global flood. It simply didn’t happen. Have there been regional floods? Of course. But that’s not the Tanakh’s claim. It’s just a fact, there was never a global flood. Those who rely on such claims are admitting that they do not have a factual basis for their argument. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/108 "2012-04-24T14:56:28Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > I personally dont see “The Plan” as detailed as many people interpret it. Jesus was a part of His plan. Me typing here on the internet isnt. My typing this response also doesnt stop His plan. Not every minutia of life has an effect I would disagree with this, but fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/109 "2012-04-24T14:57:27Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > It’s evidence of something (brain states, for instance), but not necessarily the supernatural. As to supporting evidence, there’s plenty of studies done on confabulation, temporal lobe seizures, etc. > > Eye witness testimony is shaky - it’s overturned in courts because it’s often unreliable. Again, I dont agree, but it is vetted. Eyewitness accounts have also been reliable. That is why discounting it based on a preconceived opinion isnt science. For science to be accurate, it must look for the answer, not the answer you may want. Science has been wrong in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/110 "2012-04-24T15:00:06Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Again, I dont agree, but it is vetted. Eyewitness accounts have also been reliable. > > That is why discounting it based on a preconceived opinion isnt science. > > For science to be accurate, it must look for the answer, not the answer you may want. Science has been wrong in the past. I’m not sure what you are getting at here - it seems to me that you are suggesting that we should accept eye witness testimony in some cases, just on face value. My point is that there are reasons not to do this. I might be misinterpreting you here though. Yes, science has been wrong in the past, but the point of science is not that it provides 100 % certainty, just that it’s the best method we have for figuring out things in the world. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/111 "2012-04-24T15:00:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yeah, that’s bullshit. There is zero evidence, and substantial counter-evidence, for the claim that there was ever a global flood. It simply didn’t happen. Have there been regional floods? Of course. But that’s not the Tanakh’s. It’s just a fact, there was never a global flood. Those who rely on such claims are admitting that they do not have a factual basis for their argument. Again, Im only recounting the show on The Discovery Channel. But to an individual of that area, it very well may have been local, and to them, it was global as reported. Perspective is a key here. Since there was no life at the tip of Everest, would God have need to bury it under water? What about the poles? As I said earlier, im not a literalist. I tend to read the Bible and attempt to understand it with the perspective of who is writing it, and based my understanding of that context. To them, it very well may have been global. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/112 "2012-04-24T15:03:30Z")
My deity is in Virginia for the next few days on business. I have photographs of her, and can reach her via cellphone, but other than that I am weak on direct evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/113 "2012-04-24T15:03:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [This one.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/science) > > See 3b. The physical world. That is, the natural world. > > Science does not deal with the supernatural, which is not bound by physical laws. > [@Merriam-Webster Dictionary](#): > > 3b: such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena. Science may be used to investigate the supernatural whenever it intersects with and effects the natural..and most supernatural claims I have seen do just that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/114 "2012-04-24T15:05:43Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > My deity is in Virginia for the next few days on business. I have photographs of her, and can reach her via cellphone, but other than that I am weak on direct evidence. If you deny or disparage Her in the presence of others, will they independently verify her Acts of Vengeance? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/115 "2012-04-24T15:06:01Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > I’m not sure what you are getting at here - it seems to me that you are suggesting that we should accept eye witness testimony in some cases, just on face value. My point is that there are reasons not to do this. > > I might be misinterpreting you here though. > > Yes, science has been wrong in the past, but the point of science is not that it provides 100 % certainty, just that it’s the best method we have for figuring out things in the world. Let me see if I can clarify 1st person accounts are “evidence”. Evidence is not necessarily fact. It can be, but it isnt always. As we have discussed, that “evidence” can be influenced based on personal perceptions that are not accurate. In this thread, someone discounted a personal account based on their preconceived opinion, not based on evidence. That discount may have been accurate, but it was an assumption a guess. Science does postulate, but to include or deny evidence is based on research, not just a knee jerk response. Postulates are based on what we investigate, and postulates can be wrong. Im not saying all 1st person accounts are accurate. Im saying they shouldnt be knee jerk discounted just because it conflicts with what one may believe, if indeed this is a scientific conclusion Does that make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/116 "2012-04-24T15:06:22Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Again, Im only recounting the show on The Discovery Channel. > > But to an individual of that area, it very well may have been local, and to them, it was global as reported. Perspective is a key here. Here’s the thing - yes, there was probably a local flood that the original myth was based on. There are local floods all over the place, which probably account for the local myths. Those local myths probably interpreted the flood as being global. Why prefer the Bible’s flood instead of the Sumerians? The Sumerian’s account predates the Bible’s account. > [@dngnb8](#): > > Since there was no life at the tip of Everest, would God have need to bury it under water? What about the poles? Not sure where you are going here - why would God actually have needed to flood the world (local or not) to begin with? > [@dngnb8](#): > > As I said earlier, im not a literalist. I tend to read the Bible and attempt to understand it with the perspective of who is writing it, and based my understanding of that context. That’s fine. Are you aware that quite a few scholars believe there are at least _two_ accounts of the flood contained within the Bible’s narrative? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/117 "2012-04-24T15:08:13Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > But to an individual of that area, it very well may have been local, and to them, it was global as reported. Major goalpost shifting. So we’ve gone from a magical, global flood to a “to them” global flood, which is really local. That, of course, means that the story isn’t true. And if we’ve already accepted that the universality of the flood is counterfactual, why not look at the rest of the narrative too? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/118 "2012-04-24T15:10:46Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Here’s the thing - yes, there was probably a local flood that the original myth was based on. There are local floods all over the place, which probably account for the local myths. Those local myths probably interpreted the flood as being global. > > Why prefer the Bible’s flood instead of the Sumerians? The Sumerian’s account predates the Bible’s account. Im not sure its a preference. See below for what I mean > [@](#): > > Not sure where you are going here - why would God actually have needed to flood the world (local or not) to begin with? The reason for the flood was because Man (the species) had degenerated so far from God that He essentially wanted to start over. Thus, this would be the preference to the Bible Flood, rather then the Sumarian. The Rainbow is Gods promise never to do it again > [@](#): > > That’s fine. Are you aware that quite a few scholars believe there are at least _two_ accounts of the flood contained within the Bible’s narrative? You mean 2 floods? Not sure what youre saying here. And let me preface, I am no scholar. LOL ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/119 "2012-04-24T15:12:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you deny or disparage Her in the presence of others, will they independently verify her Acts of Vengeance? Verily. Therefore I anoint her with oil. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/120 "2012-04-24T15:13:17Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Also, the fact that archeology always complements the Bible, never contradicts it. Huh, that sounds like the beginning of an easily-won wager… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=7)