# Present evidence for the existence of your deity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737 "2012-04-23T19:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/121 "2012-04-24T15:13:32Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Major goalpost shifting. > So we’ve gone from a magical, global flood to a “to them” global flood, which is really local. That, of course, means that the story isn’t true. And if we’ve already accepted that the universality of the flood is counterfactual, why not look at the rest of the narrative too? No. Youre the one saying magical, not me. Im saying Im not a Literalist. When I look at the info, I try and view it from the perspective of the writers with their beliefs at the time. To them, it was a global flood. Everything they knew of was under water. Their “world” didnt include Antarctica. The world was still flat then. And I didnt make a major goal post shift. I said this is my interpretation ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/122 "2012-04-24T15:14:33Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Verily. Therefore I anoint her with oil. Is that KY? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/123 "2012-04-24T15:15:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Huh, that sounds like the beginning of an easily-won wager… Yeah, always is a tough bet to win. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/124 "2012-04-24T15:15:38Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Let me see if I can clarify > 1st person accounts are “evidence”. Evidence is not necessarily fact. It can be, but it isnt always. > > As we have discussed, that “evidence” can be influenced based on personal perceptions that are not accurate. > > In this thread, someone discounted a personal account based on their preconceived opinion, not based on evidence. That discount may have been accurate, but it was an assumption a guess. Science does postulate, but to include or deny evidence is based on research, not just a knee jerk response. Postulates are based on what we investigate, and postulates can be wrong. Ah, I see now. Yes, I was missing the automatic dismissal. > [@dngnb8](#): > > Im not saying all 1st person accounts are accurate. Im saying they shouldnt be knee jerk discounted just because it conflicts with what one may believe, if indeed this is a scientific conclusion > > Does that make sense? Yes, fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/125 "2012-04-24T15:19:28Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Im not sure its a preference. See below for what I mean > > The reason for the flood was because Man (the species) had degenerated so far from God that He essentially wanted to start over. Thus, this would be the preference to the Bible Flood, rather then the Sumarian. The Rainbow is Gods promise never to do it again IIRC (my memory is dim), the reason the Sumerian Gods flooded the world was because the humans were being too loud for the supreme God. So, basically, why prefer the Bible’s explanation (sinful humans) instead of the Sumerians (humans too loud)? I’m not sure how coherent the Bible’s account of the whole matter is - I mean, if the purpose of the flood was because God was ticked off that man had degenerated, then why would he later save all of mankind for once again falling into degeneration? As to the rainbow - that sort of suggests that there were no rainbows prior to the flood, don’t you think? > [@dngnb8](#): > > You mean 2 floods? Not sure what youre saying here. And let me preface, I am no scholar. LOL No, not two floods - two differing accounts of the global flood. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/126 "2012-04-24T15:20:45Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > No. Youre the one saying magical, not me. No, I’m the one responding to the actual flood myth, which clearly is a magical event. You’re trying some odd dodge where you serve as an apologist for the myth structure while trying to appear disinterested as you repeatedly state that you are not a literalist. And all you’re left with is, yah, maybe there was a regional flood at some point. But… so what? We know that flooding has gone on through human history. What do we care if there was a flood in the Levant at some point? And yes, you are shifting the goalposts. It’s like some people point to Scientology’s dogma and show that it’s insane, and you respond “Well, but maybe it’s not so insane, I mean, there really are planes as well as volcanoes. Mind you, I’m not a Literalist…” ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/127 "2012-04-24T15:24:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Huh, that sounds like the beginning of an easily-won wager… Better get the money put in escrow with an impartial judge to decide. The human mind is excellently suited to massaging evidence to fit pre-conceived notions. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/128 "2012-04-24T15:25:39Z")
FTR, I’m referring to the [documentary hypothesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis). I’m also referring to the flood myth, [from here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_flood#Modern_views): > [@](#): > > The story of Noah’s Ark in Genesis is considered by modern scholars to be directly dependent upon the Babylonian version,[35] which it parallels point by point, in the correct order, from beginning to end.[36] It is a composite text,[37] with some parts belonging to the Jahwist source and some to the Priestly source.[ ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/129 "2012-04-24T15:33:25Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > IIRC (my memory is dim), the reason the Sumerian Gods flooded the world was because the humans were being too loud for the supreme God. So, basically, why prefer the Bible’s explanation (sinful humans) instead of the Sumerians (humans too loud)? > > I’m not sure how coherent the Bible’s account of the whole matter is - I mean, if the purpose of the flood was because God was ticked off that man had degenerated, then why would he later save all of mankind for once again falling into degeneration? I can only postulate because your question is my opinion. God said there were other Gods. What that means can only be guessed at. Others as powerful, others that we called Gods? Not sure. If that is to be true, and the Jewish God flooded the civilized world, why wouldnt another take credit? I choose to think theirs took the credit for the God of the Bible 😉 > [@](#): > > As to the rainbow - that sort of suggests that there were no rainbows prior to the flood, don’t you think? Nope. Just that God said that the Rainbow is His promise. It didnt say it didnt exist before. > [@](#): > > No, not two floods - two differing accounts of the global flood. Sorry. Im not a student of other texts. I barely have time for what I have read. LOL ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/130 "2012-04-24T15:36:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, I’m the one responding to the actual flood myth, which clearly is a magical event. You’re trying some odd dodge where you serve as an apologist for the myth structure while trying to appear disinterested as you repeatedly state that you are not a literalist. And all you’re left with is, yah, maybe there was a regional flood at some point. But… so what? We know that flooding has gone on through human history. What do we care if there was a flood in the Levant at some point? > > And yes, you are shifting the goalposts. It’s like some people point to Scientology’s dogma and show that it’s insane, and you respond “Well, but maybe it’s not so insane, I mean, there really are planes as well as volcanoes. Mind you, I’m not a Literalist…” No. Youre the one saying “Magical” in an attempt to negatively color the event. Im not shifting Goalposts. Youre applying other peoples opinions as fact to me. Youre essentially applying your perceptions as to what happened, and then trying to prove them (or disprove them) Your perceptions of what happened and mine are not equal. Therefor, the conclusions will be different. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/131 "2012-04-24T15:38:01Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Better get the money put in escrow with an impartial judge to decide. The human mind is excellently suited to massaging evidence to fit pre-conceived notions. > > Enjoy, > Steven Yep, this goes with everyone. Im sure my conclusions are influenced by preconceived notions. For instance, Faith is a notion, not proof. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/132 "2012-04-24T15:41:17Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > I can only postulate because your question is my opinion. > > God said there were other Gods. What that means can only be guessed at. Others as powerful, others that we called Gods? Not sure. If that is to be true, and the Jewish God flooded the civilized world, why wouldnt another take credit? I choose to think theirs took the credit for the God of the Bible I believe the scholarly view is that God ‘said this’ because the original Hebrews were henotheistic - which means they believed that Yahweh was the supreme God, not the only one. I suppose if one were to believe the Bible then yes, you could say that another God could take credit. I think that route is fraught with problems though because when we start down that route, how do we ultimately determine which God, religion, etc is the correct one? Which interpretation is the correct interpretation of which Holy scripture? I don’t know the nature of your personal experience, but based on previous testimony of personal experiences, I doubt that it was detailed to the extent that you have answers for these questions. I could be wrong though. > [@dngnb8](#): > > Nope. Just that God said that the Rainbow is His promise. It didnt say it didnt exist before. Okay, fair enough. > [@dngnb8](#): > > Sorry. Im not a student of other texts. I barely have time for what I have read. LOL My apologies, I’m not being very clear. What I’m saying is that within the Old testament, scholars have determined that the flood narrative (noah, ark, etc) is actually _two different accounts_ stitched together. If you have time, I highly recommend [this book](http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335282054&sr=8-1). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/133 "2012-04-24T15:41:53Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Again, Im only recounting the show on The Discovery Channel. Man, they really [jumped the shark](http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/shark-week/). 🙂 (Man I feel old, Shark week will celebrate its 25th anniversary) But more seriously, trash does crop on that channel too, but that does not mean one should believe everything you see on TV, or would you say that the UFO shows from the same channel are telling you the truth? > [@dngnb8](#): > > But to an individual of that area, it very well may have been local, and to them, it was global as reported. Perspective is a key here. Since there was no life at the tip of Everest, would God have need to bury it under water? What about the poles? Millions of years and plate tectonics already explain why there are marine life fossils on Everest. > [@dngnb8](#): > > As I said earlier, im not a literalist. I tend to read the Bible and attempt to understand it with the perspective of who is writing it, and based my understanding of that context. > > To them, it very well may have been global. But by the time they decided what was considered to be good to keep or remove from the bible it was already known that in Egypt the dynasties kept on going, the problem is that just around the first to the third dynasty the flood allegedly took place. Point being that even in ancient times it should not had been hard for wise men to know the true timeline, but it was ignored, leading me to conclude that the longer this clearly forced ignorance is not changed, the more likely is to get even more rejected by future generations. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/134 "2012-04-24T15:48:30Z")
Let me preface the following narrative with three notes: 1. I’m a firm agnostic. I consider the existence of God to be unknowable at this time. I don’t think I lean one way or the other. Rather, I don’t trouble myself with the question because I don’t have sufficient information to make a judgement. 2. I’ve only related the following story to my wife, because it’s slightly embarrassing an not fit for normal conversation. 3. I live in a middle class suburb that’s decently kept and not rundown. I have an ~10 minute walk to the train in the morning. Unless it’s bitterly cold, it’s a normally pleasant walk. One fine spring morning about 3 years ago, give or take a year, I was about 3 or 4 minutes into my walk when a familiar set of gurgles emanated from my digestional tract. So I did what any person would do, I let out a bottom burp. However, this time, my intestinal gasses brought along an unwelcome friend. Immediately, my options passed in front of me. Do I run back to my house? No can do. There was an important meeting to be at, I HAD to catch this train. No choice but to soldier onward and take care of the situation at my first opportunity. About two blocks ahead is a small playground that I pass through. I said a brief prayer (or maybe I just hoped, I’m not clear on whether I solicited a diety for assistance or not) that there would be something at the playground that could improve my situation. Would you fucking believe that there was a full roll of toilet paper hanging from the branch of a tree at this tiny little playground!? Now, I know that the most likely explanation for this is just some type of strange coincidence. But, come on, what are the fucking chances that on this one day, someone decided to hang a roll of toilet paper from a limb of a tiny tree in this tiny little playground? Anyway, that coincidence was so damn strange, I had to chalk up a point for the creator on my evidence list. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/135 "2012-04-24T15:50:06Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Youre the one saying “Magical” in an attempt to negatively color the event. Have you never actually read the story? Of course it’s about a magical flood. Your apologia and goalpost shifting are getting weaker when you have to argue that the story isn’t one of a miraculous flood. And yes, of course you’re shifting goalposts. With all your talk of ‘literalism’, and such, you still are attempting to somehow use an ancient myth about a magical global flood, and offering non seuqitor responses local floods, and such. You are still either unable or unwilling to clarify why we should care about the narrative, at all, if it’s main conceit is fictional. You’re still talking about “perceptions” about what happened, as your apologia is a series of odd dodges. We don’t have any evidence that any variation on the story actually happened. We do have evidence that the story as presented did not happen. Faced with the fact that the whole narrative structure of the story is fictional, you’re doing your best to shift goalposts so we can discuss the myth as a… well, Og only knows. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/136 "2012-04-24T15:53:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Man, they really [jumped the shark](http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/shark-week/). 🙂 > > (Man I feel old, Shark week will celebrate its 25th anniversary) > > But more seriously, trash does crop on that channel too, but that does not mean one should believe everything you see on TV, or would you say that the UFO shows from the same channel are telling you the truth? Oh no, I am not saying TDC is fact. Im just saying that they had scientists who say otherwise. Kinda like Global Warming, some say its true, some say it isnt. > [@](#): > > Millions of years and plate tectonics already explain why there are marine life fossils on Everest. Are those fossils carbon dated to the time of the flood? Being there only means that at one time, Everest was under water. Now you have to match the time. > [@](#): > > But by the time they decided what was considered to be good to keep or remove from the bible it was already known that in Egypt the dynasties kept on going, the problem is that just around the first to the third dynasty the flood allegedly took place. > > Point being that even in ancient times it should not had been hard for wise men to know the true timeline, but it was ignored, leading me to conclude that the longer this clearly forced ignorance is not changed, the more likely is to get even more rejected by future generations. Let me acknowledge that “The Bible” as we know it today was translated, adjusted etc. Could there be errors since its inception? I think we have to acknowledge those may exist. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/137 "2012-04-24T15:56:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Have you never actually read the story? Of course it’s about a magical flood. Your apologia and goalpost shifting are getting weaker when you have to argue that the story isn’t one of a miraculous flood. > And yes, of course you’re shifting goalposts. With all your talk of ‘literalism’, and such, you still are attempting to somehow use an ancient myth about a magical global flood, and offering non seuqitor responses local floods, and such. You are still either unable or unwilling to clarify why we should care about the narrative, at all, if it’s main conceit is fictional. > > You’re still talking about “perceptions” about what happened, as your apologia is a series of odd dodges. We don’t have any evidence that any variation on the story actually happened. We do have evidence that the story as presented did not happen. Faced with the fact that the whole narrative structure of the story is fictional, you’re doing your best to shift goalposts so we can discuss the myth as a… well, Og only knows. Have you read the story about Eve Biting an apple from the tree of knowledge? As I have said before, I interpret that as a metaphor. Youre still forcing literal translation on me. Im not a literalist. It rained for days and nights. The rains accumulated water over that time. I dont believe God snapped his fingers and a downpour began from a storm cloud that surrounded the earth. That isnt a goal pole shift in my beliefs. Youre spending a lot of time insisting on what I believe, then rebuking it. Tell ya what, you stick to what you believe, and I will stick to what I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/138 "2012-04-24T15:59:32Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Have you read the story about Eve Biting an apple from the tree of knowledge? > > As I have said before, I interpret that as a metaphor. > > Youre still forcing literal translation on me. Im not a literalist. > > It rained for days and nights. The rains accumulated water over that time. I dont believe God snapped his fingers and a downpour began. Let’s try to get back on topic. Do you, **dngnb8** , have any evidence pertaining to the existence of the deity you believe in? If so, what is it? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/139 "2012-04-24T16:04:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let’s try to get back on topic. Do you, **dngnb8** , have any evidence pertaining to the existence of the deity you believe in? If so, what is it? LOL Thanks for the laugh. Ive already addressed this. Sorry you dont accept my answer. My responses are contained with in numerous posts here. Read on McDuff. EDIT: Let me add one more thing. Lack of evidence of existence is not proof He doesnt exist. It can mean A: No God exists B: (to use Finns words) He is “magical” and has yet to let us prove it C: The tools for science have yet to be created to determine this. Thus, any belief of His existence or lack of it is … dare I say it… Faith ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/140 "2012-04-24T16:07:16Z")
We’ve already covered this, repeatedly. Your lack of understanding is beginning to seem willful. > [@dngnb8](#): > > Youre still forcing literal translation on me No, you’re defending a story that claims to be historical. You are still silent, and are evidently totally unable to address, what the story would mean or why we should pay attention to it if it is not fictional. You’ve only offered a weaksauce apologia and goalpost shifting for why we should consider religious myths, at all, when discussing religious matters except to point out that their fictional nature obviates any possible probative utility. Of course, you’re bullshitting when you claim that I’ve, even once, “insisted on what you believe.” I don’t care. I’ve just been pointing out your goalpost shifting and how even if you managed to shift the posts, you still haven’t actually done anything with 'em. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=8)