# Present evidence for the existence of your deity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737 "2012-04-23T19:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/161 "2012-04-24T16:40:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So when you said that your posts addressed my question, you were mistaken? I addressed the “evidence” position that you allude to in other posts. We have also addressed that in another thread. So, why didnt you call out all these other posters for being off topic? Obviously youre a fair minded individual who wants to be a fair mini-moderator… ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/162 "2012-04-24T16:42:03Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Every single one of these examples is proof that either God doesn’t exist, or He is not benevolent. Good God! Who would crush someone’s legs, give you problems to struggle with or give someone horrible back pain and demonic attacks? > > Yet you claim these are proof of God? WTF? You must not know much about Christianity. God never promised us a life without suffering. If God fixed or prevent every single problem or illness then death would not occur. But man commited sin and brought sin and death into this world. The event also gave Satan some freedom in this realm to torment people. God didn’t give me these problems. These are events that defy scientific explanation. The atheist is only left to scramble and resort to the default explanation, “oh that person must be a liar!” ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/163 "2012-04-24T16:43:02Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > Musicat. In what scenerio would it make sense for God to crush someone’s legs? I think we have to look at the meaning of life itself. If the meaning of life is to suffer and overcome hardships in order to grow spiritually then of course God would crush someone’s legs. A soft life leads to no growth. We are here to grow. But I’ll put another idea out there. That if we are God, then everything we experience is self-imposed for a reason. Think of it as exercise. Who would willing jog or lift weights, make themselves suffer and sweat? I disagree with your response. This is how I would phrase it. I think we have to look at the meaning of life itself. If the meaning of life is to suffer and overcome hardships in order to grow spiritually. God knows that life has events of hardship, such as crushed legs. A soft life leads to no growth. We are here to grow. I do not believe that God crushed the mans legs. I believe a random event did. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/164 "2012-04-24T16:47:32Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Are you aware you cannot prove a negative? Yes, you can. There is a giant octopus in your wallet. Go check. We’ll wait. > [@dngnb8](#): > > I havent shifted the goal posts because I didnt set them > Your still holding on to other peoples placement of the goal posts as if I was with them. Evidently you do not understand what goalpost shifting even means. In a nutshell it is exactly when someone sets up goals and provided facts/logic to substantiate their argument, and then you attempt to totally change the goal. For instance, trying to change a discussion on why the fictions in the Bible are important to some lame dodge about how, well, it’s a nice story of some sort but you are intent on ignoring any and all challenges to actually identify what we should do with a story that we know to be proof, and how it relates to the actual topic (ya know, the one you’ve tried to avoid by shifting the goalposts.) > [@dngnb8](#): > > it is still a false statement on your behalf. No, you’re just using fairly standard apologist tactics. When faced with the fact that the Bible isn’t accurate or true, you try to shift the topic to ‘metaphors’ and such. When asked what, if anything, that has to do with the fact that the religious narrative is provably fictitious, you clam up. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/165 "2012-04-24T16:47:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > By shifting the goal posts. The fictional nature of many stories in the Tanakh was used to show that it could not be used as supporting evidence as well as the fact as many religious claims are contained solely within its pages, they were in turn falsified. You then shifted the goalposts to some sort of strange weaksauce apologia for how sure the actual stories are fictional, but… something… you still haven’t actually said why we should give a damn about some ‘just so stories’ even if they’re metaphorical. Or, for that matter, what those stories have to do with the topic of this thread. > > You haven’t engaged in anything but goalpost shifting so far. Prove me wrong, show where you address the factual claims made in the Tanakh and/or the Christian Bible and show how they support a religious narrative. If they are (as you seem to be tapdancing around) irrelevant, then admit you were simply shifting the goalposts in order to offer a dodge as an apologia. As for you imagining that someone is angry, you might want to look up the psychological phenomena of projection. > > Proving that either you don’t understand what evidence is, or you’re deliberately misusing it to score rhetorical points. No, there is no evidence for a global flood. Quoting a well known site full of lies and half truths, like AiG, shows that you’re not either not interested in factual answers, or unwilling to spend the time and effort required to actually analyze factual claims you stumble upon. > > Obviously, even if you have a local flood (which I just said have occurred), that’s not proof of a global magic flood. First of all, even for your claim, [the answer is still no](http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC365_1.html). Even if it was accurate, you need to find evidence of a _global_ flood. Do you not understand why, even if there was a massive flood in the Grand Canyon, that doesn’t actually have any bearing on proof for a global flood? And the problem again is atheists will stubborn refuse to accept any evidence that supports the Bible. Therefore, they boldly claim there is ZERO evidence. I even went to the effort of looking up the definition of “evidence” **A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment** Therefore, I can certainly look to the fact that the flood story exists in many cultures with striking similiarity to the Bible as “evidence” negating your claim that there is ZERO evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/166 "2012-04-24T16:52:22Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > I addressed the “evidence” position that you allude to in other posts. We have also addressed that in another thread. I didn’t “allude to” an “evidence position” in my posts-I directly requested evidence for the existence of deities in the OP. In what post did you address this? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/167 "2012-04-24T16:52:57Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > And the problem again is atheists will stubborn refuse to accept any evidence that supports the Bible. Therefore, they boldly claim there is ZERO evidence. > > I even went to the effort of looking up the definition of “evidence” > > **A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment** > > Therefore, I can certainly look to the fact that the flood story exists in many cultures with striking similiarity to the Bible as “evidence” negating your claim that there is ZERO evidence. Well, no, the point was to get evidence of your deity, if the best you can do is that “it was close enough” or “a shrinking flood” then I guess we could go for what George Carlin said, that maybe what we have there is just a semi-supreme being. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/168 "2012-04-24T16:53:21Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I won’t call it evidence, but quantum physics suggests that nothing can exist in reality without a conscious observer. It suggests nothing of the sort. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/169 "2012-04-24T16:55:06Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > And the problem again is atheists will stubborn refuse to accept any evidence that supports the Bible. Therefore, they boldly claim there is ZERO evidence. Yes yes, atheists are out to get you and one is hiding under your bed right this instant! Of course you are, yet again (of course) trying to change the subject when you’re shown to be wrong and refusing to address yet another factual rebuttal. As pointed out, AiG’s description is false. Further, even was it not, having a local flood in the Grand Canyon would not, in fact, be proof for a global flood. Truly pathetically, now you’re reduced to claiming that since many cultures have _different_ stories of floods, the fact that you see “striking similarities” with the Bible meant that we should come to… some conclusion or another. Why we shouldn’t figure that the Babylonian flood is the true proto-narrative and the rest are just glomming onto it is anybody’s guess, except of course it’s clear that you’re gaming the system. Or trying to. Of course, the fact that many cultures have flood myths is not evidence that there was a global flood any more than polytheistic myths are proof that there are numerous, incarnate gods and goddesses who regularly visit the Earth. It is evidence that many cultures have flood myths, of course, not that you’re performing an honest analysis of that fact. Of course. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/170 "2012-04-24T16:56:47Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > I do not believe that God crushed the mans legs. I believe a random event did. Pinning down what you believe is like nailing Jell-O to a wall, since you previously said this about the same event: > [@dngnb8](#): > > It is said that He is also a Vengeful God. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/171 "2012-04-24T16:57:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I didn’t “allude to” an “evidence position” in my posts-I directly requested evidence for the existence of deities in the OP. In what post did you address this? Read on McDuff. Let me help. hit CTRL - F at the same time. type in evidence. Now click on each page, and select next on your search button. You will see posts that address evidence. You still havent answered why you havent called out all these other posts that arent on topic. Gee wilikers, one might think youre biased against me… Naaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh, not you! ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/172 "2012-04-24T16:58:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Pinning down what you believe is like nailing Jell-O to a wall, since you previously said this about the same event: The Bible says he is a Vengeful God. See earlier posts about the discussion on a Flood. That doesnt mean every event that occurs is managed by God. Nothing you quoted rebukes my statement. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/173 "2012-04-24T17:00:45Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > This sounds like evidence to me: > > "Thus the evidence within the Coconino Sandstone does not support the evolutionary geologists interpretation of slow and gradual deposition of sand in a desert environment with dunes being climbed by wandering four-footed vertebrates. On the contrary, a careful examination of the evidence, backed up by experiments and observations of processes operating today indicates catastrophic deposition of the sand by deep fast-moving water in a matter of days, totally consistent with conditions envisaged during the Flood. " > > [Startling Evidence for Noah’s Flood | Answers in Genesis](http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v15/n1/startling-evidence-for-noahs-flood) GiGo posted the rebuttal to this, but did you seriously quoted Answers in Genesis? Plus, what is an ‘evolutionary geologists’? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/174 "2012-04-24T17:03:20Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > The Bible says he is a Vengeful God. See earlier posts about the discussion on a Flood. The flood which was debunked on factual grounds, after which you shifted the goalposts and started talking about ‘metaphors’, and still won’t identify why we should care about it at all, that flood? It is like trying to nail jello to the wall, especially since the whole “vengeful god” bit is also a character change between the original book and its best-selling sequel. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/175 "2012-04-24T17:04:00Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > So, why didnt you call out all these other posters for being off topic? Obviously youre a fair minded individual who wants to be a fair mini-moderator… > [@dngnb8](#): > > Gee wilikers, one might think youre biased against me… > > Naaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh, not you! This kind of personal commentary is not appropriate for this forum, **dngnb8** , so stop it. **Czarcasm** ’s feelings about you (whatever they might be) aren’t relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/176 "2012-04-24T17:07:57Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > And the problem again is atheists will stubborn refuse to accept any evidence that supports the Bible. Therefore, they boldly claim there is ZERO evidence. Well, I don’t make that claim - there are a few things in the Bible that are basically correct. The problem is, I don’t think there are good reasons to believe the supernatural things are correct. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > I even went to the effort of looking up the definition of “evidence” > > **A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment** > > Therefore, I can certainly look to the fact that the flood story exists in many cultures with striking similiarity to the Bible as “evidence” negating your claim that there is ZERO evidence. Perhaps as evidence of a local flood - but a global one? The idea that this occurred is pretty much scientifically refuted. I mean, it’s a bit silly on the face of it. There wouldn’t be enough animals after the flood for the predators to eat, for instance. Flood stories throughout ancient cultures are evidence that people believed in various flood stories, not that they necessarily happened. Further, the fact is that regions experience flooding. So it’s not too terrible an extrapolation to extend it to the entire world. I mean, astrology is also found all throughout the world - does that mean we have evidence that the stars really do influence us? There are vampire tales throughout the world as well, does this mean that there are vampires? ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/177 "2012-04-24T17:11:24Z")
The Omphalos Stone that Rhea gave Chronos instead of Zeus and saved his life is still visible today! Many many towns in Greece are named after Zeus’ offspring by people who knew these offspring. Heck the word Deus has its origins in the name of Zeus! Works for me! ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/178 "2012-04-24T17:13:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The flood which was debunked on factual grounds, after which you shifted the goalposts and started talking about ‘metaphors’, and still won’t identify why we should care about it at all, that flood? > > It is like trying to nail jello to the wall, especially since the whole “vengeful god” bit is also a character change between the original book and its best-selling sequel. You still insisted that I switched goal posts is factually wrong. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/179 "2012-04-24T17:17:51Z")
So, not only are you _still_ ignoring actually taking a position on what the flood story should be used for if it’s clearly fictional, now you’re still denying that despite you shifting the goalposts, it was somehow wrong for me to point it out. Sorry, but no. You rather clearly changed the discussion from one of the probative value of a factual story to some nonsense about metaphor that, each and every time you’ve been challenged on, you’ve found a way to ignore it or change the topic. One suspects that’s because you’ve got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737/180 "2012-04-24T17:18:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It suggests nothing of the sort. Quantum physics is the essence of possibilities. Every object is not a determined thing, but consists of possibilities for consciousness to choose from. When consciousness in not choosing, possibilities act as waves, but when consciousness is choosing, possibilities act as particles, fixed in reality. Consciousness takes things from the endless waves of possibilities and converts, or collapses them into actual events. Quantum measurement paradox? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/present-evidence-for-the-existence-of-your-deity/619737.md?page=10)