# President as Commander-in-Chief: "Give me 50 pushups!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 20, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701 "2017-07-20T05:06:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/41 "2017-07-21T02:23:54Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Related question: does authority also extend to other branches? For example, can an Army colonel give orders to a Marine captain or will that captain only follow Marine orders? No firsthand experience with the military whatsoever, but I am fairly sure that, absent a joint command framework, a high-ranker’s authority does not extend over low-rankers in other military branches. Army colonel has no power over Marine captain, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/42 "2017-07-21T03:08:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Other than LBJ in Vietnam, has any POTUS really micromanaged his C-in-C powers? There was the scene in _Lincoln_ where Robert Lincoln was arguing with his father over his desire to join the army. Lincoln had promised his wife that he would keep Robert out of the war. RL: “I have to do this and I will do it. And I don’t need your permission to enlist.” AL: “That same speech has been made by how many sons to how many fathers since the war began? ‘I don’t need your damn permission, you miserable old goat, I’m going to enlist anyhow.’ And what wouldn’t those numberless fathers have given to be able to say to their sons as I now say to mine ‘I’m Commander in Chief.’ So, in point of fact, without my permission you ain’t enlisting in nothing nowhere, young man.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/43 "2017-07-21T12:25:43Z")
And extending the “cleaning the barracks” example: Isn’t “Fall out and get some R&R before bedtime” also an order? And thus, before the lieutenant came in, the soldiers could be sitting around the barracks, playing cards, reading love letters from home, and so on, and they would still be following orders? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/44 "2017-07-21T12:39:27Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > But if your Sargent returns and says “forget the colonel’s orders, get back to cleaning the barracks like I said…” does that work or is rank more important than chain of command? Which I assume is more than hypothetical. This wouldn’t happen. The Sergeant would swear a lot about dumb Colonels and what-not, and then tell me to stay there while he went and straightened it out. It’s not really that hard of a concept to understand, not sure why there is so much discussion about it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/45 "2017-07-21T12:41:09Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > No firsthand experience with the military whatsoever, but I am fairly sure that, absent a joint command framework, a high-ranker’s authority does not extend over low-rankers in other military branches. Army colonel has no power over Marine captain, etc. Of course it extends to other military branches. Why wouldn’t it? I think this statement - “No firsthand experience with the military whatsoever” is telling. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/46 "2017-07-21T16:31:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Any military commander has the authority to issue lawful orders to any service members under them in the chain of command… Now, if the order had been illegal (like, “march into the Capitol Building and shoot all the representatives”), then the proper course of action would be for the soldier to ask for the order in writing, and then still refuse it… A French general during WWI ordered an artillery officer to shell the trenches of their own troops who refused to go over the top and charge the German lines. The artillery officer wisely and properly asked for the order in writing, and the general decided that, uh, well, never mind. A similar incident is shown in the Kubrick movie _Paths of Glory_. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There was the scene in _Lincoln_ where Robert Lincoln was arguing with his father over his desire to join the army. Lincoln had promised his wife that he would keep Robert out of the war. > > RL: “I have to do this and I will do it. And I don’t need your permission to enlist.” > AL: “That same speech has been made by how many sons to how many fathers since the war began? ‘I don’t need your damn permission, you miserable old goat, I’m going to enlist anyhow.’ And what wouldn’t those numberless fathers have given to be able to say to their sons as I now say to mine ‘I’m Commander in Chief.’ So, in point of fact, without my permission you ain’t enlisting in nothing nowhere, young man.” Heh. And yet he ended up letting Robert join the Army after all, in a safe post on U.S. Grant’s staff: [Abraham Lincoln Letter to General Grant for Son Robert Todd to Join the War | Shapell Manuscript Foundation](http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/abraham-lincoln-sends-son-robert-todd-to-war) ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/47 "2017-07-21T17:51:07Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > If the President didn’t mind appearing to be an asshole then yes he could order anyone in the military chain of command to drop and give him 50 push ups. It’s very clear that he has constitutional authority to do so as commander in chief, there is no one to appeal his order to, he could order someone court martialed for not doing so and it would stick. > > Of course the President doesn’t want to look like an asshole even though some people may believe him to be one. He really isn’t that stupid. Given that he’s proven his willingness to play awkward handshake domination games with his fellow Heads of State, I see no reason to believe this is true. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to conclude that if he ever thought of this, and if one of [“His Generals”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiRgot-h1-g) happened to be ticking him off in a meeting, President Trump would be perfectly within character to order the General to drop and give him 20. Which would be particularly concerning as in his philosophy,[it would be shortening the person’s life.](http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/15/politics/donald-trump-exercise/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/48 "2017-07-21T20:16:00Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Given that he’s proven his willingness to play awkward handshake domination games with his fellow Heads of State Not anymore. Macron showed them all how to take care of that one, and all the rest know they’re dealing with a temperamental child. > [@](#): > > I think it’s perfectly reasonable to conclude that if he ever thought of this, and if one of [“His Generals”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiRgot-h1-g) happened to be ticking him off in a meeting, President Trump would be perfectly within character to order the General to drop and give him 20. It would be perfectly in the character of any senior officer able to retire to decline the order, as respectfully as he could manage, and go straight to the media with it. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/49 "2017-07-21T21:21:51Z")
friend was in Air Force officer school. They had a bunch of generals visiting and they were told to do pushups and other exercises while the generals drove past. But the order for PT came from their direct commander. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/50 "2017-07-21T22:28:33Z")
Since I’m squinting at this on my phone without glasses I may have missed it but there are two distinct types of military authority, command authority and general authority. Command authority comes from being in someone’s chain of command or NCO support channel. General military authority derives from your rank. This page explains it pretty well about halfway down. > **[Duties, Responsibilities and Authority explained - Army Education Benefits Blog](http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/nco_duties/duties-responsibilities-authority-of-nco.shtml)** > > DUTY: ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/51 "2017-07-21T22:43:25Z")
An order to do the crab-walk would be way more entertaining than push ups. When I was in the Army, on funeral detail I was ordered by the Sergeant First Class to do something that interfered with something my First Sergeant back at my company ordered me to do. I called my First Sergeant and he told me to ignore the lower ranking NCO over at funeral detail and to have him call my First Sergeant if he had a problem with that, it seemed to work as it was never brought up again. I guess since Funeral Detail is only a temporary 3 month deal and I still really belonged to my company the First Sergeant still superseded his authority. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/52 "2017-07-21T23:00:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > No firsthand experience with the military whatsoever, but I am fairly sure that, absent a joint command framework, a high-ranker’s authority does not extend over low-rankers in other military branches. Army colonel has no power over Marine captain, etc. Higher ranking members of other branches won’t have command authority (unless it is a joint command) but they will have general military authority. > [@pool](#): > > An order to do the crab-walk would be way more entertaining than push ups. > > When I was in the Army, on funeral detail I was ordered by the Sergeant First Class to do something that interfered with something my First Sergeant back at my company ordered me to do. I called my First Sergeant and he told me to ignore the lower ranking NCO over at funeral detail and to have him call my First Sergeant if he had a problem with that, it seemed to work as it was never brought up again. I guess since Funeral Detail is only a temporary 3 month deal and I still really belonged to my company the First Sergeant still superseded his authority. I don’t want to muddy the waters by mentioning that NCOs are mostly not in the chain of command? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/53 "2017-07-22T13:55:38Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This wouldn’t happen. The Sergeant would swear a lot about dumb Colonels and what-not, and then tell me to stay there while he went and straightened it out. > > It’s not really that hard of a concept to understand, not sure why there is so much discussion about it. It’s the crux of the question. That’s why the question is asked. Which has precedence - an order from someone in your chain of command or a countermanding order from a higher ranking person not in your chain of command? Obviously, for those of us never involved in the military, this is unclear. Chain of command obviously has some value in the situation. So does rank. Presumably if you have the time, you can relay the problem up your chain of command; but the examples given don’t always leave time for seeking clarification. Does “stay there” mean “don’t do what the colonel said until I get back to you”? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/54 "2017-07-22T15:03:55Z")
Of course, there are also the maxims “A sergeant in motion outranks a lieutenant who doesn’t know what’s going on”, and “an ordinance technician at a dead run outranks everyone”. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/55 "2017-07-22T15:37:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > …“an ordinance technician at a dead run outranks everyone”. 🙂 Yours, or did you really hear that from your service or someone in the service? It has a lot of applications. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/56 "2017-07-22T16:12:57Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > It’s the crux of the question. That’s why the question is asked. > > Which has precedence - an order from someone in your chain of command or a countermanding order from a higher ranking person not in your chain of command? Obviously, for those of us never involved in the military, this is unclear. Chain of command obviously has some value in the situation. So does rank. > > Presumably if you have the time, you can relay the problem up your chain of command; but the examples given don’t always leave time for seeking clarification. Does “stay there” mean “don’t do what the colonel said until I get back to you”? It goes back to what I posted above, there is command authority and general authority. General authority works when you see a soldier doing something wrong you have the authority to correct him. Command authority derives from your position and not your rank. You can only order those in your chain of command. We can quibble about nuances and what ifs but that’s it in a nutshell. A colonel not in your chain of command does not have the command authority to order a random private to do a task for him. In 27 years in the Army I was never ordered to do anything by anyone not put in charge of me. Now there could possibly be exigent circumstances that would cause an ad hoc chain of command to temporarily form. This happens with POWs. Or if there is a Pentagon style terrorist attack the highest ranking will take charge and ordering what needs to be done where they are until the formal chain of command takes over even to soldiers that just happen to be there. Absent that your chain of command has command authority over you. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/57 "2017-07-22T16:16:22Z")
Not to muddy things but command authority can be temporary. Ten soldiers from different companies can be tasked for a detail at battalion. A sergeant in that detail could be put in charge and will have command authority over those troops for the duration of the detail even if they are from different companies. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/58 "2017-07-22T16:45:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Leo Bloom** : > > Yours, or did you really hear that from your service or someone in the service? It has a lot of applications. [Howard Tayler’s](http://schlockmercenary.wikia.com/wiki/The_Seventy_Maxims_of_Maximally_Effective_Mercenaries). Though he may well have stolen it from someone else. ---
**Author:** ![JHBoom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/13edae/32.png) [@JHBoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JHBoom)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/59 "2017-07-22T23:34:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Watching videos of basic training at the Air Force Academy recently made me wonder just how literally the president’s Commander-in-Chief power truly extends. **Suppose the President is reviewing a parade of U.S. troops, and then he suddenly tells a soldier to drop and give him 50 pushups, is the soldier supposed to do so?** > > For that matter, does everyone who out-ranks a soldier, have the right to make him/her do anything (that is militarily legal?) Every superior can tell a junior to give him 100 pushups on the spot? 4-star general tells colonel to do pullups on the bar? > > Ludicrous question, but taking it to its literal extreme. After 20+ years as an enlisted guy in 2 branches of service, I can tell you this: whether or not it’s technically legal for POTUS, acting as CIC, to order someone to drop for some pushups… if the CIC tells you to drop for 50 and you try to barracks lawyer your way out of it with “butbutbut chain of command hurf durf!” arguments, your actual chain of command is gonna hang you by your external genitalia once you are back in their custody. > [@steronz](#): > > When you get up to that level, that could be difficult, as sometimes the only step between two 4 stars is the president. > > The president is in everyone’s chain. ADCON/OPCON issues aside, I’m pretty sure the Secretary of Defense is the step between every O-10 and POTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701/60 "2017-07-23T00:30:55Z")
> [@JHBoom](#): > > ADCON/OPCON issues aside, I’m pretty sure the Secretary of Defense is the step between every O-10 and POTUS. The Combatant Commanders under the Unified Combatant Command report to the president through the Secretary of Defense. The branch secretaries and the Joint Chiefs are not in the Chain of Command. > **[Unified combatant command](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_combatant_command)** > > A unified combatant command, also referred to as a combatant command (CCMD) or (COCOM), is a joint military command of the United States Department of Defense that is composed of units from two or more service branches of the United States Armed Forces, and conducts broad and continuing missions. There are currently 11 unified combatant commands, and each is established as the highest echelon of military commands, in order to provide effective command and control of all U.S. military forces,... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-as-commander-in-chief-give-me-50-pushups/791701.md?page=4)