Based on my experience in the Coast Guard in the 1980s
There is a strict code of justice UCMJ with defined procedures such as page 7 (a nasty report, although it can be a good report), captain’s mast, court martial, all with defined limits on who is the jusge, possible defense lawyers, what punishment can be meted out. I never saw or heard of anyone assigning physical punishment out of boot camp. The worst was probably a CWO2 in charge got mad at an E-4 for failing inpection for a couple straight months that he told him to polish his dress shoes NOW…and made sure he did.
Illegal orders, such as shooting members of Congress, are not to be obeyed. You are in serious trouble if you obey one.
What is more tricky is an order that maybe illegal on one instance and legal otherwise. For example, a superior can not order you to wash his personal automobile to make it clean and spiffy. He can order you to do it if there is a military purpose “The admiral from district headquarters is flying into the local airport at 1400 and we don’t have any government vehicles available. So I am picking him up in my car which needs to be clean and spiffy”. If you are given an order which you are not sure about, do it and ask someone later on who would know for sure.
If you are standing watch at night and a high ranking officer or President comes in unexpectedly (usually you have several weeks notice), he does not have access to locked areas such as safes, etc. You are to politely tell them to wait while you get someone more equipped to deal with them (The OOD Officer of the Day) who is in charge of the base.
You do not grab people from other departments just because you out rank them. You talk to your counterpart and have them assign the people you need. A CWO in charge of an electronics shop will talk to his fellow CWO in machinery (or whoever is). It’s a very territorial job.
If a colonel in the pentagon ordered you to pick up trash for the next week, he could do that without going through the chain of command?
I’m not sure what the regulations say to be honest, but in basic they kind of hinted that there was a reasonable level of, “If it doesn’t conflict with your duties and it’s a lawful order, you’d better do it,” which is where I would categorize most requests to help carry something or pick up a little bit of trash. But the vagueness of this all bit me on the ass at my first duty station, when I thought it was reasonable to do something that an NCO outside of my chain asked (ordered?) me to do that ended up taking a couple of hours. Words were exchanged and I was told that I should have asked my supervisor before dropping what I was doing and helping someone outside of our unit on an extended task.
Yeah, you shouldn’t have been in the middle of that exchange. Your supervisor should have spoke to the other guy without involving you. You did nothing wrong.
It’s all about chains of command, though anyone of higher rank could give some orders to anyone of lower rank even if they aren’t in the chain of command. But if you are a private, then your corporal can give you orders. So can your sergeant. So can your LT, your captain, your major, your colonial and your general (I wasn’t in the Army so if I have this off a bit my apologies). They probably wouldn’t, and instead, would give orders to their immediate subordinate and down the chain, but they certainly can. And, basically, the President is in every military person’s chain of command. So, yeah…he or she could do so. Probably wouldn’t be endearing to the military and would probably bring the president in for some flames all around from the public, but that private would have to follow those orders and do those pushups…same as if his general told him to do them.
From a practical perspective, most privates are going to do those pushups if anyone of officer rank tells them to do so, without most likely trying to rules lawyer the situation. If their sergeant is about then that person MIGHT take the officer aside and quietly talk about it, though if it’s a general officer then I doubt even that.
Not to hijack the thread, but there is definitely an etiquette in corporate life that “orders” come only from your most immediate boss. So assuming it is not an emergency, I’m almost certain Gates would have told the Vice President of Toilet Cleaning that there was an issue, the VP would have told the director of Toilet Cleaning there was an issue, who would have told the Foreman of the toilet cleaning staff there was an issue, who would have told the specific janitor to clean the toilet. Now, whether this would have been followed if there was a big turd on the floor - maybe that would be the exception that proves the rule!
But can your less-than-colonel immediate superior countermand those orders, or would it have to come from an at least colonel in your chain of command? (Presumably he would not have to notify the asshole colonel of the change in orders…?)
President James Madison also personally gave orders to troops in the field before the 1814 Battle of Bladensburg, Md. (it didn’t go well), and President Abraham Lincoln personally scouted out a landing site for U.S. infantry near Norfolk, Va. in a rowboat during the Civil War, and ordered both a later landing and a separate nearby bombardment.
Something similar happened to a friend of mine who was a private in the Ohio National Guard and was deployed on maneuvers in the Eighties to, I think, Guatemala. He was placed on guard detail at the base’s gate one night and ordered to let no one in without a valid written pass. A two-star general whom he didn’t know and who didn’t have a pass tried to barge in, and he refused the general entry. The general ranted and raved at him but then went away. My friend’s CO later commended him for following orders.
Yeah, that’s one of the first things we were taught in Basic Training. Pretty scary when a guy is pounding on the door just to test you. Nice job by your friend!
How far do you want to take this hypothetical? Bottom line is, a superior officer doesn’t have to be in your “Chain of Command” to give you a lawful order that you must follow.
UCMJ Article 92 - FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
That’s the primary one.
So, it would, as I stated earlier, depend on the branch of service. There are specific manuals that will govern this and if the request is inline with that stated guidance then it’s a lawful order. Such things as polishing superior shoes, etc., are not lawful orders and can be refused. And experience in the Navy won’t carry over to the Army or even the Marines (which are part of the Navy) as all have their own regulations.
But, this question is in regards to when the CIC gives such a command. It would require some research to be sure but looking at the topology in regards to the current chain of command, plus my military experience, the order would follow what ever has been promulgated via ones branch of service. That’s usually how it works from my experience working at joint commands.
On the other hand, though, a member of the armed forces is almost always going to be following some order or another that they got in the usual way through their chain of command. If your regular superior orders you to clean the barracks, and some other officer not in your chain of command orders you to do something else, that would mean that while you’re doing that something else, you’re not cleaning the barracks like you were ordered to. Does it depend on the relative ranks of the people giving the orders? Like, if your sergeant ordered you to clean the barracks, and a strange lieutenant gives you the other order, you’re supposed to obey the lieutenant?
I don’t know how it is in the US, but we were taught to keep on cleaning the barracks in such situation. Usually that sort of thing doesn’t happen because the officers know damn well who are under them in the chain of command.
This is just not done, it is breaking protocol and undermining how things work.
You could write a wall of text explaining why, but just suffice to say it is not done.
You could say, Sir we have been ordered by Sgt XXX to clean the barracks, are you countermanding the order Sir?
You have then clarified that you are carrying out direct orders, then if the LT wishes to continue, he has clarified that he acknowledges you are working under orders, and that he does wish to countermand them, and he is assuming the responsibility for having done so.
You have not said no or refused, you have simply asked for clarification and made him state clearly and assume responsibility for his actions.
Which leaves you in the clear.
LT’s protocol, unless an emergency of course, is to go through the command chain.
You have given him the chance to do so, if any ass chewing arises, it wont be yours.
But if your Sargent returns and says “forget the colonel’s orders, get back to cleaning the barracks like I said…” does that work or is rank more important than chain of command? Which I assume is more than hypothetical.
Related question: does authority also extend to other branches? For example, can an Army colonel give orders to a Marine captain or will that captain only follow Marine orders?
Certainly s/he can, subject to the mentioned considerations of chain of command, lawfulness, etc. The national command authority can and does create joint commands.