# President Chavez & Sunday's Election **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764 "2008-11-21T01:30:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kitemaker\_chuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a88e4f/32.png) [@kitemaker\_chuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitemaker_chuck)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/1 "2008-11-21T01:30:10Z")
I saw in an online news report from AP concerning President Hugo Chavez and the upcoming election this Sunday, specifically the upcoming election for governor of the state of Barinas. The reports are saying that should the opposition candidate (Julio Reyes) defeat his opponent (President Chavez’s older brother), then President Chavez will send tanks into Barinas if his candidate should lose the election. I guess President Chavez is also said to be threatening similar action in the case of Manuel Rosales running against Chavez’s candidate for the office of mayor of Maricaibo. Would he actually do something like this if his candidates lost the election “fair and square”, and if so, wouldn’t this hurt his image and credibility with his supporters at home and in other countries? It seems a bit “heavy handed” if he actually chooses to respond this way to a free and fair election should his candidates lose. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/2 "2008-11-21T01:34:42Z")
He’s probably hoping that he doesn’t have to, that the mere threat will be enough to ensure that his guys win. If they do, he can then claim that he never threatened intervention at all (there’s probably enough cutouts in the story to allow that), and get the best of both worlds. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/3 "2008-11-21T01:36:39Z")
cite? ---
**Author:** ![kitemaker\_chuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a88e4f/32.png) [@kitemaker\_chuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitemaker_chuck)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/4 "2008-11-21T01:39:54Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > cite? I saw it on an AP report on the online news on Yahoo. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/5 "2008-11-21T04:29:06Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > cite? [Here ya go](http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE4A83DT20081109) Slee ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/6 "2008-11-21T05:47:58Z")
I wasn’t aware that Chavez had any credibility left to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/7 "2008-11-21T06:40:25Z")
Perhaps not in the US, but presumably he does in Venezuela. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/8 "2008-11-21T06:51:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Perhaps not in the US, but presumably he does in Venezuela. A good chunk of the leftist political parties in South America get the vapors when hearing Chavez talk. But sending in tanks to change a democratically held election would (Og I hope so!) be a clear wake up call. If anything it would be very good grounds to invoke the Democracy clause of MERCOSUR, declare Venezuela as non-compliant with the treaty clauses and force Chavez to accept electoral results or be kicked out of the bloc. Of course said leftist political parties have been exceptionally flexible regarding that clause so far as applied to Chavez. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/9 "2008-11-21T23:26:48Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I wasn’t aware that Chavez had any credibility left to lose. :dubious: How many elections has he won, now? (And **really** won them, not like W did.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/10 "2008-11-23T06:18:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I wasn’t aware that Chavez had any credibility left to lose. 0 with me, but what is his standing with Venezuelans? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/11 "2008-11-23T06:24:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: How many elections has he won, now? (And **really** won them, not like W did.) He lost one a couple of years ago, in regard, as I recall, extending the powers of the president. W, by the way, if fact, did not win elections by force of arms. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/12 "2008-11-23T06:26:49Z")
It’s funny how people like to compare Bush to tinpots like Chavez. As bad as Bush was, he was not as bad as Chavez. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/13 "2008-11-23T09:59:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s funny how people like to compare Bush to tinpots like Chavez. As bad as Bush was, he was not as bad as Chavez. I could argue that one round or square. How many countries has Chavez invaded? How many people have died as a result? How many people has Chavez had tortured? How many people has he kidnapped from other countries? Have his secret agencies illegally obtained financial information about individuals in other countries? Illegally tapped phone calls? Chavez is a clown with little power to do much harm. Bush is a criminal who has done much more damage than Chavez could ever do. But I would rather Chavez be president of Venezuela than of the USA. By that measure you are right. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/14 "2008-11-23T14:22:19Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I could argue that one round or square. How many countries has Chavez invaded? How many countries has Chavez had the capability to invade? > [@](#): > > How many people have died as a result? How many people has Chavez had tortured? How many people has he kidnapped from other countries? Have his secret agencies illegally obtained financial information about individuals in other countries? Illegally tapped phone calls? I don’t know how many Venezuelans he has tortured. > [@](#): > > Chavez is a clown with little power to do much harm. Bush is a criminal who has done much more damage than Chavez could ever do. But Chavez is a tyrant who is reshaping the country so that his power cannot be challenged. He has more ability to do that than Bush ever did. Just because Venezuela is relatively weak doesn’t mean Chavez wouldn’t expand his power base further if he could. > [@](#): > > But I would rather Chavez be president of Venezuela than of the USA. By that measure you are right. I’d rather him not be President of anywhere, just like I’d rather Bush not be. It just drives me nuts that people would rather support ideology. “Oh socialist President of Venezuela is de facto good because he mouths leftist platitudes.”, like people like **Brainglutton** who give a tinpot dictator a pass just because he uses the right code words. Lenin called them ‘useful idiots’. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/15 "2008-11-23T17:42:21Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > W, by the way, if fact, did not win elections by force of arms. Just saying. Nor did Chavez. What is your point? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/16 "2008-11-23T17:46:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nor did Chavez. What is your point? Why is it ok when Chavez steals an election but not ok when Bush does? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/17 "2008-11-23T18:25:13Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How many countries has Chavez had the capability to invade? It is a stupid line but I can play. OK. How many chances has GW Bush had to molest children? Just sayin’. > [@](#): > > I don’t know how many Venezuelans he has tortured. We do not know how many Venezuelans the Pope has tortured. We do not know how many Venezuelans Mother Theresa tortured in the last ten years of her life. We do not know how many Venezuelans Mr. Rogers tortured. It looks like in all cases the number is most probably zero. But we DO know Bush has ordered the use of torture and that has been used in fact. Substantial difference. From zero to a number greater than zero. > [@](#): > > But Chavez is a tyrant who is reshaping the country so that his power cannot be challenged. He has more ability to do that than Bush ever did. Just because Venezuela is relatively weak doesn’t mean Chavez wouldn’t expand his power base further if he could. I do not like Chavez and I wish he was not there but he has been elected and maintained by a greater margin than Bush and he has suffered an American backed coup. In this story America are the bad guys. No doubt about it. > [@](#): > > I’d rather him not be President of anywhere, just like I’d rather Bush not be. There we agree. > [@](#): > > It just drives me nuts that people would rather support ideology. “Oh socialist President of Venezuela is de facto good because he mouths leftist platitudes.”, like people like **Brainglutton** who give a tinpot dictator a pass just because he uses the right code words. > > Lenin called them ‘useful idiots’. I do not know what you mean by “ideology” but I defend democracy and so I _have_ to defend Chavez and condemn the American backed coup against him. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/18 "2008-11-23T18:26:23Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why is it ok when Chavez steals an election but not ok when Bush does? Every election Chavez won was certified free and fair by international observers. As you know. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/19 "2008-11-23T18:29:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Every election Chavez won was certified free and fair by international observers. > > As you know. So you don’t consider threatening military force against a populace that votes the wrong way to be a form of stealing an election? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764/20 "2008-11-23T21:00:12Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So you don’t consider threatening military force against a populace that votes the wrong way to be a form of stealing an election? I do; I don’t consider it something that has happened in Chavez’ Venezuela. Where are you **getting** this nonsense?! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-sundays-election/473764.md?page=2)