# President Chavez vs. the Netherlands **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697 "2009-12-18T01:10:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/61 "2009-12-22T01:01:00Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > The reason Berlusconi bothers me so much is because… Well, imagine president **Rupert Murdoch** as a neighbour. I’d imagine him gone after his term. Chavez managed to get term limits removed. Italy has a strange relationship between President, Prime Minister, and Parliament so I don’t know how much damage a President can cause without term limits. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/62 "2009-12-22T01:47:24Z")
I shouldn’t be telling any of you this, but I’m secretly a Ninja Assassin, poised to kill Chavez within the next 8 hours. But don’t tell anyone, I want his security blissfully unaware as I assassinate him with my stealth Ninja skills of star throwing. And, the kicker, I’m actually working out of Cuba. Turns out Raul is kind of pissed that Hugo (pronounced “Huge-o”) Dicko (kind of a pet name he has for Chavez) is stealing his communist thunder. He’s had enough problems stepping out of big bro’s shadow. The above is entirely satirical, not meant as a threat on anyones life. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > what exactly has he done that makes you think he’s going straight to Hell? > **[Halabja massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack)** > > Iraqi invasion of Iran (1980) > Stalemate (1981) > Iranian offensives to free Iranian territory (1981–82) > [@mswas](#): > > What an idiot. We can hit him from Texas. Correction. _What an idiot. We can hit him from Alaska._ > [@Stoneburg](#): > > Are you claiming that Chavez is a dictator and that free elections are not held in Venezuela? No, I think the point that he’s claiming is that Chavez is a dictator who held unfree elections in Venezuela. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/63 "2009-12-22T02:49:44Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > I shouldn’t be telling any of you this, but I’m secretly a Ninja Assassin, poised to kill Chavez within the next 8 hours. But don’t tell anyone, I want his security blissfully unaware as I assassinate him with my stealth Ninja skills of star throwing. And, the kicker, I’m actually working out of Cuba. Turns out Raul is kind of pissed that Hugo (pronounced “Huge-o”) Dicko (kind of a pet name he has for Chavez) is stealing his communist thunder. He’s had enough problems stepping out of big bro’s shadow. > The above is entirely satirical, not meant as a threat on anyones life. Yeah. Maybe YOU’RE not actually an assassin, but what about Natalee Holloway? She obviously WAS an American assassin–dispatched to Aruba so that she might rendezvous with nefarious, clog-wearing, Venezuela-hating, _Nederlanders_ who were deep in the pocket of the American imperialists. But she never counted on her main Dutch contact, the clever and debonair Johan van der Sloot, being a double agent. As Johan seduced Natalee with his dorky Dutch charm, she never suspected that he was working for Chavez–that he was more than willing to silence her–that he in fact would have killed a\* million \*beautiful American agents–would have done anything at all–to finally achieve his lifelong dream: to become Commissioner of the Venezuelan Double-A Baseball Developmental League. And he knew that was something he could only get from one man… …Hugo Chavez. The rest is history–van der Sloot sent Holloway to sleep with the fishes. This elicited a maniacal howl of victory from his master, President Chavez, and irrevocably crushed the CIA’s Dutch-Caribbean assassination network. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/64 "2009-12-22T09:28:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The question was, “Who scares you more Chavez or Berlusconi?”, America wasn’t an option, it was multiple choice. Choose B or C. > > So the obvious answer is C because B doesn’t constantly talk shit about us. So those cites about “terrorism”? ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/65 "2009-12-22T11:42:44Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > So those cites about “terrorism”? [BBC video about Chavez’s recognition of FARC as a “legitimate army” that must be respected and whose aims he respects](http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7180000/newsid_7184500/7184518.stm?bw=nb&mp=wm&news=1&ms3=6&ms_javascript=true&nol_storyid=7184518&bbcws=2) [Der Spiegel story about Chavez funding FARC](http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,545910,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/66 "2009-12-22T12:00:37Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > So those cites about “terrorism”? [Chavez’s detractors have a habit of being attacked](http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=analysis/tony1001). **A few nights later, these terrorist circles, in a skillfully coordinated effort which involved several hundred people, attacked 21 newspaper printing shops, television and radio stations, in Caracas and Venezuela’s other major cities, under the complacent look of the authorities who are loyal to Chavez. People were wounded, property was destroyed and the damages are worth several million dollars. While all this has been taking place, organized roving bands of Chavez sympathizers have sought out and engaged peaceful members of the opposition, in violent confrontations, which have resulted in one dead and several wounded members of the oppositio** n. [FARC vowing support of Chavez](http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/colombi/articles/20060228.aspx). [Chavez’s support of FARC.](http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/01/11/chavez.farc/index.html) This is consistent with a Marxist head of state who has already used a military coup to gain power and will likely use it again in the future. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/67 "2009-12-22T12:34:18Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > [BBC video about Chavez’s recognition of FARC as a “legitimate army” that must be respected and whose aims he respects](http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7180000/newsid_7184500/7184518.stm?bw=nb&mp=wm&news=1&ms3=6&ms_javascript=true&nol_storyid=7184518&bbcws=2) > > [Der Spiegel story about Chavez funding FARC](http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,545910,00.html) > [@](#): > > Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez publicly rejected their classification as “terrorists” in January 2008, considering them to be “real armies”, and called on the Colombian and other governments to recognize the guerrillas as a “belligerent force”, **arguing that this would then oblige them to renounce kidnappings and terror acts, and respect the Geneva Conventions**. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/68 "2009-12-22T12:40:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [Chavez’s detractors have a habit of being attacked](http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=analysis/tony1001). > \*\*A few nights later, these terrorist circles, in a skillfully coordinated effort which involved several hundred people, attacked 21 newspaper printing shops, television and radio stations, in Caracas and Venezuela’s other major cities, under the complacent look of the authorities who are loyal to Chavez. People were wounded, property was destroyed and the damages are worth several million dollars. While all this has been taking place, organized roving bands of Chavez sympathizers have sought out and engaged peaceful members of the opposition, in violent confrontations, which have resulted in one dead and several wounded members of the oppositio Your source is Alek Boyds site. Boyd is characterized by Chomsky as a “mentally unstable opposition blogger” and Boyd wrote on his blog that he would like to “pour melted silver into their eyes” and decapitate Chavez supporters. Those are his own words. Your source. So far the only real info I’ve gotten is that Chavez was elected by a clear majority (almost 2/3) in a popular election (85% voter turnout) and that there seems to be no real substance behind the various allusions to him as a “tinpot dictator”. It seems likely that much of the detractors dislike him for his socialist policies and are willing to make up stuff to discredit him. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/69 "2009-12-22T13:01:33Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Your source is Alek Boyds site. Boyd is characterized by Chomsky as a “mentally unstable opposition blogger” and Boyd wrote on his blog that he would like to “pour melted silver into their eyes” and decapitate Chavez supporters. Those are his own words. Your source. > > So far the only real info I’ve gotten is that Chavez was elected by a clear majority (almost 2/3) in a popular election (85% voter turnout) and that there seems to be no real substance behind the various allusions to him as a “tinpot dictator”. It seems likely that much of the detractors dislike him for his socialist policies and are willing to make up stuff to discredit him. His FARC support and past military coup is the very definition of tinpot dictator. [Is NPR OK to cite?](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113513484) ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/70 "2009-12-22T16:11:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Has anyone told Raul or Fidel? 1933! 1933! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/71 "2009-12-22T16:24:33Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > The Netherlands, actually. _National Lampoon_ once ran a hilarious piece by [Christopher Cerf](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Cerf) – "Americans United to Beat the Dutch! It’s no longer posted on the NatLamp website, alas. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/72 "2009-12-22T19:24:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > His FARC support and past military coup is the very definition of tinpot dictator. > > [Is NPR OK to cite?](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113513484) Tinpot means of little or no value/credibility. Him supporting FARC makes him neither tinpot or a dictator. If you have your own definition which goes something like: “Any democratically elected leader who supports a subversive/rebel/terrorist group outside his nations borders”, then I ask you to name one single US president from this century or the former that doesn’t fit that definition. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/73 "2009-12-22T19:35:03Z")
“tinpot dictator” and/or “terrorist” 😃 You’d almost think Chavez was the man with the hanging cleats, the claims of WMD, the offshore torturing centre, the deaths of hundreds of thosands on his hands and the record of overthrowing elected governments in central and south America stretching back 40 years. The USA sure has to worry about him. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/74 "2009-12-22T20:50:29Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Tinpot means of little or no value/credibility. Him supporting FARC makes him neither tinpot or a dictator. > > If you have your own definition which goes something like: “Any democratically elected leader who supports a subversive/rebel/terrorist group outside his nations borders”, then I ask you to name one single US president from this century or the former that doesn’t fit that definition. You’re comparing Chavez to US Presidents and the US political system? Seriously? He rose to power in a military coup. His hobbies are nationalizing private companies and arresting poople who disagrees with him. He has no world credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/75 "2009-12-22T20:53:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re comparing Chavez to US Presidents and the US political system? Seriously? He rose to power in a military coup. His hobbies are nationalizing private companies and arresting poople who disagrees with him. He has no world credibility. 2 of those 4 claims of yours befit our most previous president, just in case anyone is keeping score ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/76 "2009-12-22T21:22:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He rose to power in a military coup. . Say what? > [@](#): > > By May 1998, Chávez’s support had risen to 30% in polls, and by August he was registering 39%. **Chávez went on to win the 1998 presidential election on 6 December 1998 with 56% of the votes**.[13][33] [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez) ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/77 "2009-12-23T06:36:13Z")
> [@kitemaker\_chuck](#): > > President Chavez was quoted in the AP report as saying “Europe should know that the North American empire is filling these islands with weapons, assassins, American intelligence units, and spy planes and war ships.” Someone got him an Xbox 360 for Christmas and included Mercenaries 2 in the games pack. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/78 "2009-12-23T06:45:14Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Say what? > > [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez) Uh, the sentence before your quote from the same source: \*\* A career military officer, Chávez founded the left-wing Fifth Republic Movement after orchestrating a failed 1992 coup d’état against former President Carlos Andrés Pérez \*\* I’d say he’s about due for a replacement. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/79 "2009-12-23T07:34:04Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > “tinpot dictator” and/or “terrorist” 😃 > > You’d almost think Chavez was the man with the hanging cleats, the claims of WMD, the offshore torturing centre, the deaths of hundreds of thosands on his hands and the record of overthrowing elected governments in central and south America stretching back 40 years. The USA sure has to worry about him. Yes, the U.S. is teh evil!!!1. Can we digress from the tu quoque and get back to Chavez? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697/80 "2009-12-23T11:16:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Uh, the sentence before your quote from the same source: > \*\* > A career military officer, Chávez founded the left-wing Fifth Republic Movement after orchestrating a failed 1992 coup d’état against former President Carlos Andrés Pérez > \*\* > > I’d say he’s about due for a replacement. But that failed, he went to prison, then he came back and did it democratically. You’re intentionally trying to create a false impression. He has always been a democratically elected leader,incidently elected by popular vote rather than corporate interests and in the face of a hostile media - which may make him rather more credible than some other elected leaders in nations with less independent media in the Americas. Why do you want to press this patent lie? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-chavez-vs-the-netherlands/521697.md?page=5)