# President fiddles while soldiers burn **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2005, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978 "2005-08-07T10:05:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/81 "2005-08-08T17:01:34Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > …You’re totally blinded by your hatred of Bush, to the point where you’ve become one of the people that could see Bush do CPR on a dying woman and accuse him of copping a cheap feel. By now, if GW were to walk on water, I’d be pretty sure it was because he can’t swim. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/82 "2005-08-08T17:13:22Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Veb, I did ponder it, which is why I apologized and promised to take any future such complaints to the Pit. Regarding your betrayal of confidence in your position as moderator, I do not wish to discuss that with you in this forum. There was _no_ ‘betrayal of confidence’, **Lib**. I intervened in the thread in an attempt to forestall further brouhaha. I never dreamed that you would actually report it, given the circumstances. (Couldn’t make this stuff up, folks.) Veb ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/83 "2005-08-08T17:20:18Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Did you bitch like this whenever Clinton or Carter or Johnson stepped out of the White House for a while? This thread has been **Clothahumped** by the\*\* Clothahumper\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/84 "2005-08-08T17:22:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sign me up. > > As to whether or not Bush works when he’s in Crawford, I think everyone knows he does. Politics aside, a leader should be mindful of the symbolism of his actions. I’m sure my manager can work from home, but if he left every day at 4 while asking everyone else to stay at work until 6, we would all rightly conclude that he was an asshole. A month long vacation in August is symbolic of his _fraternité_ with the French. Nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/85 "2005-08-08T17:22:55Z")
> [@](#): > > President Bush has begun a five week — five week — vacation at his Crawford Ranch in Texas. Five weeks without Bush in the Oval Office is better than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/86 "2005-08-08T17:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re totally blinded by your hatred of Bush, to the point where you’ve become one of the people that could see Bush do CPR on a dying woman and accuse him of copping a cheap feel. Saying Bush lied to the American people is like saying Clinton cheated on his wife - it’s a non-partisan acknowlegement of the facts. Bush deserves a bad reputation because he’s earned it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/87 "2005-08-08T17:44:48Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > There was _no_ ‘betrayal of confidence’, **Lib**. I intervened in the thread in an attempt to forestall further brouhaha. I never dreamed that you would actually report it, given the circumstances. (Couldn’t make this stuff up, folks.) > > Veb But **Veb** , whether **Lib** should have reported it or not seems to me to be somewhat beside the point. Nor is it especially relevant whether or not the Mods agree with **Liberal** ’s interpretation. I’ve reported a few posts in my time here, and i’ve always been under the assumption that the identity of someone reporting a post would be kept in confidence by the Moderators. If **Liberal** ’s accusation had merit, then it could have been acted upon without giving away his identity. And if it did not—which was obviously your determination—then it could have merely been ignored, or **Lib** could have been informed in an email. It seems to me that the only possible reason for making a public announcement of **Lib** ’s accusation is to stir up further animosity between him and other people in this thread. If we do the right thing and take our concerns of trolling to the Moderators rather than making open accusation, it’s a little disconcerting to know that we might be “outed” for our trouble. And, as **Lib** suggested, what’s the point in banning open accusations of trolling if the Mods are simply going to air the private accusations in public anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/88 "2005-08-08T17:57:11Z")
Uh, **mhendo** , I think you’re misunderstanding Veb. I think the timeline was something like this: [ol] [li] **Binarydrone** posts.[/li][li] **TVeblen** posts.[/li][li] **Liberal** reports **Binarydrone** ’s post.[/li][/ol] Where (3) happened very shortly after (2). ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/89 "2005-08-08T17:59:05Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > It seems to me that the only possible reason for making a public announcement of **Lib** ’s accusation is to stir up further animosity between him and other people in this thread. If we do the right thing and take our concerns of trolling to the Moderators rather than making open accusation, it’s a little disconcerting to know that we might be “outed” for our trouble. And, as **Lib** suggested, what’s the point in banning open accusations of trolling if the Mods are simply going to air the private accusations in public anyway? The reason for refuting **Lib’s** accusation was to make clear to posters that we _do not_ ‘out’ who reports posts. Clear now? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/90 "2005-08-08T18:07:49Z")
> [@](#): > > It seems to me that the only possible reason for making a public announcement of Lib’s accusation is to stir up further animosity between him and other people in this thread. Go back and read Veb’s actual intervention. There is no mention of “Lib’s accusation.” There was an acknowledgement that **Binarydrone** had made his point, with a clear implication that he should not do it any more, and a further note to Lib not to pursue the issue (since **Binarydrone** had already been addressed). The only reference to **Lib** making a report is **Lib** later noting that he had made a report. This thread has made it into the Moderator discussion arena and Veb noted, there, that she had already intervened in this thread before she got any Report e-mails. So, no one on the staff has noted that anyone has reported a thread or post. We will continue to not refer to Reported posts. If posters want to stand up and shout “I reported this one!” we are stuck with having that information appear on the board, but it is unfair to accuse us of impropriety when we have not engaged in improper actions. Now, it is possible that Lib reported the thread prior to Veb’s action and drew a conclusion. (That would be an employment of the _Post hoc ergo propter hoc_ fallacy for those who are keeping score.) I will note, however, that the Report system is not an instantaneous operation. Sometimes we get reports right away, sometimes we do not. (I got a report of the latest “Rees for council” spam over six hours after I had already hidden the thread. The person reporting it had to have done so in the three minutes between when it was poted and when I removed it, yet the notification did not show up for a quarter of a day.) When a Report does show up in a timely fashion, we are still at the mercy of actually seeing and opening the e-mail. It is also possible that Veb did see and act on the Report. She has said this is not what happened and I see no reason to call her a liar. If you will re-read her intervention, however, you will note that her reference to **Binarydrone** is for past action and her reference to **Liberal** is for future action, so even if, for some odd reason, she chose to lie to other staff members regarding the sequence of events, what she posted on the board made no reference to any Report. We are not revealing Reporting posters and we will continue to not reveal Reporting posters. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/91 "2005-08-08T18:14:55Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > The reason for refuting **Lib’s** accusation was to make clear to posters that we _do not_ ‘out’ who reports posts. Clear now? Well, you didn’t out and out ‘out’ **Lib** , but did you not imply it rather heavily? Your very first post in this thread contained this: > [@TVeblen](#): > > Don’t whine to us about this being ‘trolling’, **Liberal**. With no previous posts to refer to, my inference is that **Lib** had reported a post. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/92 "2005-08-08T18:28:20Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Did you bitch like this whenever Clinton or Carter or Johnson stepped out of the White House for a while? I imagine not. You’re totally blinded by your hatred of Bush, to the point where you’ve become one of the people that could see Bush do CPR on a dying woman and accuse him of copping a cheap feel. Wah! Fact of the matter is that **Liberal** is both a flaming jackass and a screeching drama queen. Even the people that side with him tend not to argue with that. Of course, somehow you’ve managed to bring up Clinton in only the 77th reply to the OP. **Liberal** isn’t the only one that needs a new schtick. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/93 "2005-08-08T18:38:30Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Uh, **mhendo** , I think you’re misunderstanding Veb. > > I think the timeline was something like this: > > [ol] > [li] **Binarydrone** posts.[/li][li] **TVeblen** posts.[/li][li] **Liberal** reports **Binarydrone** ’s post.[/li][/ol] > Where (3) happened very shortly after (2). It could well be that you’re right. But i still wonder why **Veb** ’s post contained the line, “Don’t whine to us about this being ‘trolling’, Liberal.” At the very least, it smacks of rather childish behaviour for a Mod to make such a pre-emptive statement when acting in her capacity as a Moderator. Why not just say to **Binarydrone** , “OK, you’ve made your point, let’s leave it at that,” rather than engaging in petty “So there!” behavior towards another poster? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/94 "2005-08-08T18:44:30Z")
> [@Tom](#): > > Now, it is possible that Lib reported the thread prior to Veb’s action and drew a conclusion. (That would be an employment of the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for those who are keeping score.) It would indeed. However, I made no accusation whatsoever about trolling in this thread (or any other). Since I said nothing public about trolling, why tell me not to say what I didn’t say? It seems to me that “Don’t whine to us about this being ‘trolling’, Liberal,” either came out of the clear blue nothing, or else it came from my report, which consisted of one word: “Trolling”. I reported the post at 11:16 Eastern, as soon as I saw it. Veb’s announcement didn’t come until 1:44, almost 2-1/2 hours later. That’s a lot of post and a lot of hoc. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/95 "2005-08-08T18:46:55Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But i still wonder why **Veb** ’s post contained the line, “Don’t whine to us about this being ‘trolling’, Liberal.” At the very least, it smacks of rather childish behaviour for a Mod to make such a pre-emptive statement when acting in her capacity as a Moderator. Well, there is a bit of related history from when he got a mod sort of ruling that using his old user name was sort of mocking him. He was pretty much waving that ruling about as a banner for a bit, till the last die-hards quit using his old name. I’d not be surprised if **Veb** was hoping to cut that off at the pass this time. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/96 "2005-08-08T18:52:27Z")
But why put trolling in quotes as though it indeed were something I said, TYM? And why would Veb mind that her rulings are cited once or twice for the purpose of pointing out the behavior that she specifically said must stop? Aren’t people constantly pointing out rulings, like no troll accusations, no false quotations, and so forth? What’s wrong with pointing out the ruling about no false usernames? I assume it doesn’t apply only to me. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/97 "2005-08-08T18:59:38Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > There was _no_ ‘betrayal of confidence’, **Lib**. I intervened in the thread in an attempt to forestall further brouhaha. I never dreamed that you would actually report it, given the circumstances. (Couldn’t make this stuff up, folks.) > > Veb Well, I would appreciate your explaining how things unfolded from your point of view. As I see it: 1. I reported the post. 2. My report contained a single word: trolling. 3. You posted 2-1/2 hours later. 4. Your response quoted exactly the post I reported. 5. You put the word I used in quote marks in your response. Can you understand how this all might seem a bit too serindipitous? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/98 "2005-08-08T19:03:20Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But why put trolling in quotes as though it indeed were something I said, TYM? That I can’t answer. > [@](#): > > And why would Veb mind that her rulings are cited once or twice for the purpose of pointing out the behavior that she specifically said must stop? Aren’t people constantly pointing out rulings, like no troll accusations, no false quotations, and so forth? What’s wrong with pointing out the ruling about no false usernames? I assume it doesn’t apply only to me. I assume so as well. In this case, **Liberal** , it’s not what you did, it’s how you did it. I remember the name thing because a) I agreed with you that people should call you by your new name, and b) the style in which you informed people of that ruling grated on my last nerve. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/99 "2005-08-08T19:05:10Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > In this case, **Liberal** , … Aah. “In this case” should be “In that case”. Sorry, that was too confusing not to correct. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978/100 "2005-08-08T19:15:09Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I assume so as well. In this case, **Liberal** , it’s not what you did, it’s how you did it. I remember the name thing because a) I agreed with you that people should call you by your new name, and b) the style in which you informed people of that ruling grated on my last nerve. Well, I’m sorry about that. I hadn’t been aware of a style. You and I have gotten along well since we mended our fences, and I appreciate that. Frankly, I thought that the “style” of mutilating my username was itself rather nerve grating. At this point, I think it should be cleared up whether retributory posts are indeed trolling, as [Skipmagic said](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6446468&postcount=47), or just “sauce for the goose” as Veb said in her post to Binary. His ruling was the reason I reported the post to begin with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-fiddles-while-soldiers-burn/315978.md?page=6)