# President George W Bush no longer the worst President in living memory **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2020, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848 "2020-04-02T00:59:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/41 "2020-04-02T22:06:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > … > What actual success has Trump had? Even the White House’s list of accomplishments are mostly facts related to the economy growing, all of which has now gone to shit, and none of which really had much to do with any Trump policy. … Well, until now, trump allowed the prosperity run that Obama started to continue, with a strong DOW and low unemployment. The President cant do much to improve the economy, but he _can_ screw it up, and trump didnt screw it up. So, that’s a success. But not a big one. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/42 "2020-04-02T22:18:00Z")
I am still not pleased with Barack Obama, though. W put a bunch of really dreadful policies in place, like those bullshit “healthy forests” and “clear skies” scams and of course the horrendous “no child left behind”, and Obama pulled those things back not at all, as far as I can see. He simply did not do enough, even with two years of a fully blue government, to undo the damage of his predecessor. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/43 "2020-04-02T22:24:14Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > Well, and Eisenhower was the first US president to send “advisers” to Vietnam. He started the ball rolling, and it was all downhill from there. Yes, I feel the critical decision was made in 1954. That’s when France finally decided to withdraw from Southeast Asia. Our only strategic reason for being involved in Vietnam was because it was a price we paid for French support in Europe. Once France pulled out, we no longer had a good reason to stay. But the Eisenhower administration decided that we needed to take over the war from France and support Diem’s regime in order to stop the spread of communism. South Vietnam was never able to stand on its own so we needed to send more and more resources - including troops - to prop it up. It was a bottomless pit. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/44 "2020-04-02T23:05:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, until now, trump allowed the prosperity run that Obama started to continue, with a strong DOW and low unemployment. > > The President cant do much to improve the economy, but he _can_ screw it up, and trump didnt screw it up. > > So, that’s a success. But not a big one. It’s also neither thanks to Trump nor wisdom. The Republican party okayed every little bit of spending on both sides of the aisle and threw in a few things as well - at complete odds to the President’s suggested budget - to try and pump money into the economy and buy the next election. (Or at least, it’s hard to envision the rationale for their budgets under Trump, when compared to their stated policy goals.) Trump didn’t veto the budget, to be admitted, but that seems more to be a matter that he didn’t really care about his stated economic policy, and they told him that it was legal vote buying, so he accepted it. Beyond that, most countries in Europe were experiencing the same low unemployment rates as the US, so the cause seems to be unrelated to politics. Either it was rebound from the previous recession or something different with the modern economy (e.g., the gig economy). ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/45 "2020-04-02T23:12:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ve never agreed with the idea that Bush was being manipulated by evil people in his administration. I feel Bush was in charge but just assumed that “gosh shucks” demeanor because he thought it played well with the public. He’s even more “gosh shucks” now that he’s out of office. E.g.: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEvT\_Dw9Bpw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEvT_Dw9Bpw) I think the Republican leadership is, to some extent, actively targeting idiot stuffing for the White House. They’re aiming for the Japanese model where the primary figure of the government serves principally as a distraction, so that real business can be done off to the side by the people who were lucky enough to get elected into office, despite being smart. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/46 "2020-04-03T08:50:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How competent does the Antichrist need to be? Competent enough to get into the highest position of power. Which Trump has already (somehow) managed. I’d say Trump’s ability to form a one-world government is out of the question. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/47 "2020-04-03T11:46:52Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > But for fuck’s sake, he wasn’t this hateful, hurtful, malignant, relentlessly odious presence that Trump is. This. I think to find someone who reaches Trump’s level, one would have to be really old, even assuming one “remembers” as far back as the day they were born. How far back? March 3rd, 1921, which was Woodrow Wilson’s last day in office. I think that even the likes of Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge were better than Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/48 "2020-04-03T13:25:17Z")
Eh, Woodrow Wilson certainly had his faults, and some of them were quite bad ones. For starters, he was quite racist. But he didn’t put his faults front and center. Racist as he was, he didn’t make his racism his top priority. His top priority, which he spent considerable resources on, was world peace. And even though his efforts in that regard failed horribly, it’s still a worthy goal, and I think he deserves some credit for that. Does Trump have any priorities at all that are not rooted in greed and/or hatred? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/49 "2020-04-03T13:26:13Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Is that actually valid? It looked like Johnson expanded Vietnam a lot more than JFK expected too. It’s been a long time since I read on that subject, but I don’t recall an intent to expand our presence like Johnson did from Kennedy. Hersh’s famous exposé suggests that Kennedy thought Vietnam a mistake but wanted to wait until after the 1964 elections to withdraw. :eek: He neglected to inform his Vice President. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/50 "2020-04-03T14:58:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Does Trump have any priorities at all that are not rooted in greed and/or hatred? Demonstrating the flaws of the American media. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/51 "2020-04-03T15:03:28Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Hersh’s famous exposé suggests that Kennedy thought Vietnam a mistake but wanted to wait until after the 1964 elections to withdraw. :eek: He neglected to inform his Vice President. That’s roughly what I remembered. Though the name Hersh doesn’t ring any bells. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/52 "2020-04-03T15:46:53Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > The people dying of COVID-19 today are victims of Trump’s incompetence, laziness, and general dumbshittery. :dubious: “The people dying of COVID-19 today are victims of Trump’s incompetence, laziness, deliberate and persistent lies and general dumbshittery.” FTFY ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/53 "2020-04-03T16:08:08Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Hersh’s famous exposé suggests that Kennedy thought Vietnam a mistake but wanted to wait until after the 1964 elections to withdraw. :eek: He neglected to inform his Vice President. Johnson thought Vietnam was a mistake. But it’s one he couldn’t see a way to avoid. I think Kennedy would have run into the same problem. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/54 "2020-04-03T16:09:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Does Trump have any priorities at all that are not rooted in greed and/or hatred? Vanity. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/55 "2020-04-03T16:35:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Vanity. I’d say he’s got the seven deadly sins covered: Lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/56 "2020-04-03T18:06:56Z")
> [@pool](#): > > To me George W. Bush is still the worst he got us into a senseless war that didn’t just kill American troops but a huge number of Iraqi civilians both directly and indirectly. Trump may not be a great president but I don’t think he has done as much damage as Bush at this present moment anyway and there are many other evils that happened under Bush as well, things like the patriot act and clamping down on civil liberties. Bush also majorly fucked up the economy it just didn’t really come to a head until right when he left office. > > From wiki: > > “460,000 deaths in Iraq as direct or indirect result of the war including more than 60% of deaths directly attributable to violence. 110,600 violent deaths. 183,535 – 206,107 civilian deaths from violence. 109,032 deaths including 66,081 civilian deaths.” > > Not to even mention Afghanistan. Wait until you see the worldwide effects of the coming global depression. A strong American economy could have prevented that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/57 "2020-04-03T18:20:06Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Yep. And I say this as someone who has a lot of respect for Johnson’s domestic policies. My perspective is a bit different. A democratic Korea would not exist today if we took this attitude towards the Korean war. It was a reasonable policy stance to try and fight the spread of communism in Vietnam. It didn’t work out as well as we would have hoped but it was not the sort of things we could leave unchecked. We now understand that all the capitalist countries did much better than the communist ones and we could probably have let things just play out on their own if we met too much resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/58 "2020-04-03T20:11:35Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I have to agree Trump is worse than Bush, but give bush credit where credit is due. He had the most evil Vice President/Puppet Master in Dick Cheney. Also Cheney is responsible for getting into the war in Iraq, not Bush. Bush is pathetic for letting Cheney manipulate so much. Trump is fucking awful all on his own. The President is responsible for the policies of their administration and the consequences therefrom. Claiming that Bush wasn’t responsible for getting the US involved in a war in Iraq because he handed his authority to Cheney is actually worse than making the decision himself because he had the power to stop it (as every one of our NATO allies except Great Britain counseled) and did nothing. There seems to be a collective diffusion filter on the George W. Bush presidency because of how legitimately awful Trump is by comparison, but Bush is directly responsible for getting the United States involved in the two longest and most costly wars in US history for no good reason whatsoever. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I don’t think I ever thought of Bush as being deliberately hateful and immoral. Whereas Trump is fucking hateful and ignorant at his very core and it radiates out around him like a poisonous cloud. We are fortunate to the extent that Trump’s worst instincts are tempered by his sheer stupidity and incompetence. Imagine what Trump could do if he were competent at anything other than being a TV reality star. I’ve never been so thankful for incompetence in leadership. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Johnson thought Vietnam was a mistake. But it’s one he couldn’t see a way to avoid. I think Kennedy would have run into the same problem. [“I’m not sure I agree with you 100% on your police work there, Lou.”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myWfWk1IQrw) > [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’d say he’s got the seven deadly sins covered: > Lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride. Also, don’t forget: [Donald Trump wants to bang his daughter."](http://www.cc.com/video-clips/73fxht/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-don-t-forget--donald-trump-wants-to-bang-his-daughter) Aside from his moral failings, Trump actively worked to minimize the warnings of public health authorities, attacked the press for asking legitimate questions and publishing factual information, and spread misinformation and baseless conspiracy theories like a toddler painting the wall in their own shit. He has acted in retribution to governors who displeased him by restricting aid to the states they govern. These actions have lead to a critical delay in informing the public, imposing isolation guidelines to limit the spread, and preparing hospitals to deal with an out-of-control epidemic. **Donald Trump should be held liable for _criminal negligence_ in his utter failure not only to do his job but in preventing other people from doing theirs in this crisis.** Stranger ---
**Author:** ![sweepkick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@sweepkick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweepkick)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/59 "2020-04-04T06:42:32Z")
As much as I disliked GWB… there was never a time, after 9/11 hit, that I envisioned him laying down on his bed, face buried in his pillow, kicking his legs and beating his fists on the bed crying and screaming “WHY DID THIS HAPPEN WHEN _I_ WAS PRESIDENT”. This is the vision of Trump I have every time I see him talk about the coronavirus situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/60 "2020-04-04T13:23:00Z")
I thought Shrub was stupid, lazy, and had terrible policies but I didn’t think he was sent straight from the underworld to destroy the human race. T. is nightmare you can’t wake up from. That’s not a metaphor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848.md?page=4)