# President George W Bush no longer the worst President in living memory **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2020, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848 "2020-04-02T00:59:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/81 "2020-04-13T00:10:52Z")
This thread can be distilled down to this: Trump and the GOP don’t necessarily care whether Trump is the worst president in living memory because they’re hoping to change the political system so that public opinion doesn’t matter anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/82 "2020-04-13T05:57:45Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > Yes, Trump is by far the worst President of my, or any American’s lifetime. His handling of this pandemic, which has now cost 20,000 lives here (arguably higher, as many have not been tested, including a friend of mine who hadn’t been tested before passing) may prove to be his downfall; but it’s so much more than that. > > His placement of foxes to guard the chickens: > > - Rick Perry, who wanted to shutter the Dept of Energy > - Betsy De Vos, school voucher Queen > - Scott Pruitt, whose biography describes himself as a leading advocate against the EPA’s activist agenda ([Cite](https://www.linkedin.com/in/e-scott-pruitt-3b771653)) > - Ben Carson in HUD? > - Ryan Zinke > > His use of acting secretaries, enabling him to skirt Senate confirmation and oversight. > > His dismantling of the State Department is one that will leave a long lasting hole in diplomacy moving forward. > > His grifting. Making the Secret Service pay to stay at his properties and to pay for the rental of golf carts is just the tip of the iceberg here. How much has he profited off of foreign diplomats at his DC hotel and at Mar-a-Lago? I cannot understand why anyone would think this is worse than lying the world into an immoral, needless war which killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/83 "2020-04-13T13:13:19Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Well, you must not have noticed where the original proposal wanted it “_ **without review** _” – IGs would not be very useful if they were not allowed to review Paulson’s actions. I get that and got it the first time. The contexts are admittedly similar but the administrations are quite different in nature. Immediacy was the primary concern, and it’s plausible that he wanted to implement the infusion of capital without restraint because he didn’t want to get bogged down in red tape and details at a time when the economy was hemorrhaging jobs and investment capital. Is it possible that the system could have been abused? Over time was it likely? Yes. Am I being naive in what I write? Possibly. But let’s acknowledge the differences between how the Bush administration, overall, behaved relative to this one. Bush-Cheny were bad - no argument. But they are leagues different from this one. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/84 "2020-04-13T13:19:12Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > I cannot understand why anyone would think this is worse than lying the world into an immoral, needless war which killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Some of us are engaging in revisionist history when we think of the Iraq war as some kind of wild invasion of a peaceful, sovereign nation out of the blue. I was against the US decision to invade Iraq unilaterally, but I was not against putting pressure on the Hussein regime and that was a pretty mainstream position back in 2001. In the context of 9/11, there was mainstream support for it, with or without finding WMDs. There was a perfectly valid moral argument to be made for removing Saddam Hussein. I happen to think it was inherently unwise, and I tend not to be swayed by moral arguments for removing thugs of state (my position re North Korea is similar). Sovereignty is best respected until it is clear that the person in question can no longer respect sovereignty. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other ethical arguments to remove someone like a Hussein or a Kim Jung Un - there are. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/85 "2020-04-13T13:52:28Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Some of us are engaging in revisionist history when we think of the Iraq war as some kind of wild invasion of a peaceful, sovereign nation out of the blue. I was against the US decision to invade Iraq unilaterally, but I was not against putting pressure on the Hussein regime and that was a pretty mainstream position back in 2001. In the context of 9/11, there was mainstream support for it, with or without finding WMDs. > > There was a perfectly valid moral argument to be made for removing Saddam Hussein. I happen to think it was inherently unwise, and I tend not to be swayed by moral arguments for removing thugs of state (my position re North Korea is similar). Sovereignty is best respected until it is clear that the person in question can no longer respect sovereignty. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other ethical arguments to remove someone like a Hussein or a Kim Jung Un - there are. You’re using a lot of words to say not very much. Did the Bush Administration lie about the threat Iraq posed? Yes. Did they also dishonestly cherry-pick evidence to justify their war? Yes. Did they horribly bungle the aftermath of the invasion? Yes. Did they create a power vacuum which was immediately filled by the worst terrorists on Earth? Yes. Did hundreds of thousands of people - many of them children - die horribly? Yes. Did the opposition warn the Bush administration that all this would happen _long_ before the first bomb fell? Yes. Did the Bush Administration do anything, literally _anything at all_, to imply that they ever came within a thousand miles of giving a fuck? No. That’s all that matters. Nothing Trump has done, from the kids in cages to the Russian collusion to the pussy grabbing to the fucked up response to Covid-19 and everything in between, comes close to equalling the sheer evil that Bush perpetrated in Iraq. If you put a gun to my head and forced me to choose your next President, and my only options were Trump and George W Bush, I’d pick Trump every single time. Trump’s a bad guy. He belongs in prison. George W. Bush is a war criminal. He belongs in The Hague. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/86 "2020-04-13T15:35:16Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > If you … forced me to choose your next President, and my only options were Trump and George W Bush, I’d pick Trump every single time. Trump’s a bad guy. He belongs in prison. George W. Bush is a war criminal. He belongs in The Hague. Ok.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/87 "2020-04-13T16:21:12Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > There was a perfectly valid moral argument to be made for removing Saddam Hussein. There are perfectly valid arguments for removing a great many heads of state. Either we make it a worldwide tradition of toppling leaders for least of excuses (to which I might not object, if the standard were applied broadly and justly, across _every_ nation) or we leave sovereignty standing as it is. W’s invasion of Iraq was unprovoked and unjustifiable, and the man himself should stand trial in The Hague. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/88 "2020-04-13T16:25:45Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > W’s invasion of Iraq was unprovoked and unjustifiable, and the man himself should stand trial in The Hague. True. But I would maintain Trump is a worse president and person. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/89 "2020-04-13T16:34:49Z")
Probably worth pointing out that most of the pandemic strategy, planning and preparedness that Trump dismantled was actually put into place by George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/90 "2020-04-13T18:33:57Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > I cannot understand why anyone would think this is worse than lying the world into an immoral, needless war which killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. We will likely lose that many from trump’s bumbling with Covid. And at least the war got rid of a evil sack of shit who used nerve gas on his own people. And his sons who loved to torture innocents. Saddam likely would have killed at least that many of his own people if we had left him in. If not more. So, while I think the Shrub lied his ass off, and we had no business invading Iraq, some good came of it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/91 "2020-04-13T18:47:49Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > There are perfectly valid arguments for removing a great many heads of state. Either we make it a worldwide tradition of toppling leaders for least of excuses (to which I might not object, if the standard were applied broadly and justly, across _every_ nation) or we leave sovereignty standing as it is. > > W’s invasion of Iraq was unprovoked and unjustifiable, and the man himself should stand trial in The Hague. Total nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/92 "2020-04-13T19:17:16Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Total nonsense. Wrong. It was actually, a perfectly sensible and accurate post. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/93 "2020-04-13T20:13:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, while I think the Shrub lied his ass off, and we had no business invading Iraq, some good came of it. Oh yes. The rise of aQI-\>Da’esh. That was ever so delightful. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/94 "2020-04-15T01:36:03Z")
While I don’t hate Trump because of his bad personality, I do think there is a bit of nuance there: the thing is, people with his type of bad personality (i.e.a hateful, mean one) tend to do bad acts. It’s part of why we as a society “evolved” the idea that people who act like that are bad. If you have a hateful personality, it’s hard to have compassion. If you have a selfish demeanor, it’s hard to do things that help others. If you have an over-inflated view of yourself, it’s hard to learn and not make mistakes. Adn the worst each of these is, the harder it is. And Trump is worse in all of these than any other person I’ve ever heard from. Not met, not friends with–people I’ve heard actually say things. Of course, given power, he would do these bad things. That’s why it was stupid to give him power! ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/95 "2020-04-15T02:19:46Z")
Tramp vs Dubya? Cholera vs typhus? Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848/96 "2020-04-15T17:31:09Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > I cannot understand why anyone would think this is worse than lying the world into an immoral, needless war which killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. You have the benefit of hindsight. We don’t know yet the full extent of the damage that will have been caused by the current occupant of the White House. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-george-w-bush-no-longer-the-worst-president-in-living-memory/850848.md?page=4)