# President Obama's latest pardons. Are these really the most deserving? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813 "2015-12-18T23:48:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/21 "2015-12-19T18:50:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Anyone who has not initiated violent force against the person or property of another person deserves to be freed. This includes many more individuals than have been pardoned here. I’m glad they got out, but I’d like to see Obama pardon his political prisoners before he gets out. Like the one convicted of three counts of armed bank robbery? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/22 "2015-12-19T20:14:56Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Like the one convicted of three counts of armed bank robbery? She was sentenced to 48 years in jail for those offenses. The appeal court upholding the sentence ( [https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/unpub/92/92-5666.0.wpd.pdf](https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/unpub/92/92-5666.0.wpd.pdf) ) said: > [@](#): > > With great regret for the harshness of this mandatory sentence imposed on this appellant, we affirm. So even the judges in her case thought the sentence “harsh”, but could do nothing about it. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/23 "2015-12-20T04:31:41Z")
The ‘Drug Laws are GOOD!’ folks have a better case if marijuana had not been placed on Schedule I of the US narcotic laws. Sch I is defined as ‘having no medicinal value’. Most opiates, by contrast, are on Sch II. Much of the US ‘War on Drugs’ was a result of Nixon’s failures - he needed another boogey man (he was an old-line Red Baiter, as in Joe McCarthy Red Baiting) and the Commies weren’t up to the task. He chose to come out ‘Hard on Drugs!’ His presentation of a Plaque to Elvis Presley for his “Contributions to a Drug-Free America” was hilarious - Elvis was (reportedly) coked to the gills during the ceremony. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/24 "2015-12-20T11:37:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Perhaps he is going for what me and many others have pointed out before, Obama is not the one that deserves the whole blame, but all the ones in congress that do not want to end the war on drugs. What me and others pointed before is that anyone that is in prison for drug offences that were not involved in violence **are our political prisoners.** > > This is because, when one thinks about it, it is clear that drugs remain criminalized for many nations just for political reasons. [As the evidence demonstrates that most drugs are less harmful than alcohol.](http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/nov/01/alcohol-more-harmful-than-heroin-crack) That would make sense, except that he seems to think those he did pardon do not qualify as political prisoners. I invite him to come back and clarify. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/25 "2015-12-20T15:31:29Z")
I agree thAt those imprisoned for drug laws would qualify as political prisoners, indeed I would go further than that in my analysis, but I didn’t think a board so thoroughly saturated with statism would go for that. Congrats. I was drawing the attention to more traditional political prisoners currently locked up, like those Obama has ruthlessly crushed under the espionage act. I would also include tax protesters locked up as traditional political prisoners. For example, Irwin Schiff was denied access to medical treatment and died in prison an old man because he was the most famous tax protestor in modern times. The state is ruthless with those who threaten their paychecks. The prisoners in Guantanamo are examples of political imprisonment. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/26 "2015-12-20T15:41:44Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I agree thAt those imprisoned for drug laws would qualify as political prisoners, indeed I would go further than that in my analysis, but I didn’t think a board so thoroughly saturated with statism would go for that. Congrats. > > I was drawing the attention to more traditional political prisoners currently locked up, like those Obama has ruthlessly crushed under the espionage act. I would also include tax protesters locked up as traditional political prisoners. For example, Irwin Schiff was denied access to medical treatment and died in prison an old man because he was the most famous tax protestor in modern times. The state is ruthless with those who threaten their paychecks. The prisoners in Guantanamo are examples of political imprisonment. Schiff was a Sovereign Citizen type. Nothing more than a wannabe freeloader. I will agree on the Guantanamo Bay prisoners. Though that was Bush’s doings and Obama can’t shut it down without Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/27 "2015-12-20T20:33:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I agree thAt those imprisoned for drug laws would qualify as political prisoners, indeed I would go further than that in my analysis, but I didn’t think a board so thoroughly saturated with statism would go for that. Congrats. > > I was drawing the attention to more traditional political prisoners currently locked up, like those Obama has ruthlessly crushed under the espionage act. I would also include tax protesters locked up as traditional political prisoners. For example, Irwin Schiff was denied access to medical treatment and died in prison an old man because he was the most famous tax protestor in modern times. The state is ruthless with those who threaten their paychecks. The prisoners in Guantanamo are examples of political imprisonment. :dubious: You know, if you’re going to try to have a discussion, it helps to have _some_ fundamental ground with your opponents. If I start crowing about political prisoners, and then later explain that I think anyone in jail for embezzlement, theft, and bank fraud is a “political prisoner”, and then only later explain that I think money is a social construct that has no business being respected by law, the fact that people are confused and irritated is entirely my fault. I am the one with a bizarre, non-conventional position that virtually nobody in the modern world agrees with; I am the one who should be clarifying the philosophical position that I am arguing from. It’s not statism to acknowledge that taxation is necessary, or to acknowledge that it cannot be optional. It’s not statism to acknowledge that sometimes, the government needs to keep secrets, or to acknowledge that there is some legitimacy in locking up people selling addictive, life-destroying substances. If you’d like to have an argument based on your particular philosophy, then present that philosophy first, _then_ make wild-ass claims based on it. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/28 "2015-12-21T02:15:45Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Schiff was a Sovereign Citizen type. Nothing more than a wannabe freeloader. > I will agree on the Guantanamo Bay prisoners. Though that was Bush’s doings and Obama can’t shut it down without Congress. Uhh no he wasn’t a sovereign citizen. Attempted ad hominem on your part. Reason to dismiss you. Obama can indeed do whatever he wants to do with Guantanamo. You are making use of his boosters’ excuses. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/29 "2015-12-21T02:26:50Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > :dubious: > > You know, if you’re going to try to have a discussion, it helps to have _some_ fundamental ground with your opponents. If I start crowing about political prisoners, and then later explain that I think anyone in jail for embezzlement, theft, and bank fraud is a “political prisoner”, and then only later explain that I think money is a social construct that has no business being respected by law, the fact that people are confused and irritated is entirely my fault. I am the one with a bizarre, non-conventional position that virtually nobody in the modern world agrees with; I am the one who should be clarifying the philosophical position that I am arguing from. > > It’s not statism to acknowledge that taxation is necessary, or to acknowledge that it cannot be optional. It’s not statism to acknowledge that sometimes, the government needs to keep secrets, or to acknowledge that there is some legitimacy in locking up people selling addictive, life-destroying substances. If you’d like to have an argument based on your particular philosophy, then present that philosophy first, _then_ make wild-ass claims based on it. Anyone who favors a state is a statist. Definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/30 "2015-12-21T02:46:01Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Uhh no he wasn’t a sovereign citizen. Attempted ad hominem on your part. Reason to dismiss you. Ok, then please explain to us why Schiff should be viewed as a political prisoner rather than a clown who refused to his taxes and as a result got jailed? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/31 "2015-12-21T02:51:52Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Uhh no he wasn’t a sovereign citizen. Attempted ad hominem on your part. Reason to dismiss you. > > Obama can indeed do whatever he wants to do with Guantanamo. You are making use of his boosters’ excuses. Read his rationalizations for not paying taxes. Same shit as the S.C/FMoL. [‘Disappointed’ Obama signs defense bill making it harder to close Gitmo](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/177/close-the-guantanamo-bay-detention-center/) > [@](#): > > The National Defense Authorization Act prohibits the use of funds to close Gitmo. It also bans using funds to transfer or release detainees to the United States or to construct or modify facilities in the United States to house detainees from Gitmo ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/32 "2015-12-21T05:39:01Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Anyone who favors a state is a statist. Definitions. Oh, okay. So, in other words, a good 99.99% of the world’s population belongs to that category. Not sure why it seems like you’re using it as a perjorative. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/33 "2015-12-21T05:52:34Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Oh, okay. So, in other words, a good 99.99% of the world’s population belongs to that category. Not sure why it seems like you’re using it as a perjorative. And as long as it remains that way, he can continue to object while enjoying the services provided. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/34 "2015-12-21T05:52:42Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Oh, okay. So, in other words, a good 99.99% of the world’s population belongs to that category. Not sure why it seems like you’re using it as a perjorative. **WillFarnaby** can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m guessing because statists don’t adhere to the [Non-Aggression Principle.](http://nap.univacc.net/). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/35 "2015-12-21T10:38:23Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > A cocaine or heroin dealer is not enabling people to choose how to entertain themselves any more than a date rapist is. They are in the business of preying on the mentally ill - a self-inflicted mental illness, sure, but still incapable of providing the consent necessary to make their business anything less than evil. But as already noted, this could apply equally well to cigarette and alcohol dealers. Would you support long sentences for those as well, if it was entirely up to you? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/36 "2015-12-21T12:01:21Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > But as already noted, this could apply equally well to cigarette and alcohol dealers. Would you support long sentences for those as well, if it was entirely up to you? Cigarettes, yes. Alcohol, no. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/37 "2015-12-21T12:43:33Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Cigarettes, yes. Alcohol, no. Huh? Why the difference? Alcohol is at least as addictive and kills more people. 😕 Tobacco kills the smoker from cancer and such, but alcohol causes also accidents on the roads and at work, is often a cause of domestic violence, etc… So, if anything it’s a worst social ill than tobacco (and I suspect even than heroin or any other drug). ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/38 "2015-12-21T16:06:03Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > **WillFarnaby** can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m guessing because statists don’t adhere to the [Non-Aggression Principle.](http://nap.univacc.net/). I’m sure that by some extremely broad yet simultaneously extremely specific and narrow reading of the non-aggression principle that has _absolutely nothing to do with reality_, you can find some way to attack the quite frankly embarassing number of people who disagree with you. But it is _phenomenally_ self-defeating to apply the non-aggression principle to the concept of a state, and then pretend that everything will just work out on its own. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/39 "2015-12-21T16:07:59Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Basically these people were imprisoned when the penalties were much harsher than they are today for drug offenses, and the effect of the commutations is to cut down the length of the sentences so that they would be much closer to what currently sentenced prisoners serve. There are many thousands of prisoners in this situation. Well, that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813/40 "2015-12-21T16:53:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Uhh no he wasn’t a sovereign citizen. Attempted ad hominem on your part. Reason to dismiss you. “Tax protestor” is hardly less pejorative than sovereign citizen, but it still refers to the same sort of idiocy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-latest-pardons-are-these-really-the-most-deserving/740813.md?page=3)