# President Obama's Mouth **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574 "2013-07-15T17:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/1 "2013-07-15T17:30:09Z")
I could be wrong, but ISTM that President Obama has a habit of making poorly thought out, off-the-cuff public remarks about matters, without enough consideration of the situation and the import of his words. One example is much in the news of late, that being his initial response to the Trayvon Martin shooting. Another was his initial reponse to the [Gates/Crowley incident](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/32122967/ns/us_news-life/t/obama-poor-choice-words-scholars-arrest/). But two other instances reported in the past few months are possibly of greater import. From the [NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/05/world/middleeast/obamas-vow-on-chemical-weapons-puts-him-in-tough-spot.html?pagewanted=all) > [@](#): > > Confronted with evidence that chemical weapons have been used in Syria, President Obama now finds himself in a geopolitical box, his credibility at stake with frustratingly few good options. > [@](#): > > Moving or using large quantities of chemical weapons would cross a “red line” and “change my calculus,” the president declared in response to a question at a news conference, to the surprise of some of the advisers who had attended the weekend meetings and wondered where the “red line” came from. With such an evocative phrase, the president had defined his policy in a way some advisers wish they could take back. > > “The idea was to put a chill into the Assad regime without actually trapping the president into any predetermined action,” said one senior official, who, like others, discussed the internal debate on the condition of anonymity. But “what the president said in August was unscripted,” another official said. Mr. Obama was thinking of a chemical attack that would cause mass fatalities, not relatively small-scale episodes like those now being investigated, except the “nuance got completely dropped.” > > As a result, the president seems to be moving closer to providing lethal assistance to the Syrian rebels, even though he rejected such a policy just months ago. > [@](#): > > The evolution of the “red line” and the nine months that followed underscore the improvisational nature of Mr. Obama’s approach to one of the most vexing crises in the world, all the more striking for a president who relishes precision. Palpably reluctant to become entangled in another war in the Middle East, and well aware that most Americans oppose military action, the president has deliberately not explained what his “red line” actually is or how it would change his calculus. > > “I’m not convinced it was thought through,” said Barry Pavel, a former defense policy adviser to Mr. Obama who is now at the Atlantic Council. “I’m worried about the broader damage to U.S. credibility if we make a statement and then come back with lawyerly language to get around it.” And [this](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/us/obama-remark-is-complicating-military-trials.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0): > [@](#): > > When President Obama proclaimed that those who commit sexual assault in the military should be “prosecuted, stripped of their positions, court-martialed, fired, dishonorably discharged,” it had an effect he did not intend: muddying legal cases across the country. > > In at least a dozen sexual assault cases since the president’s remarks at the White House in May, judges and defense lawyers have said that Mr. Obama’s words as commander in chief amounted to “unlawful command influence,” tainting trials as a result. Military law experts said that those cases were only the beginning and that the president’s remarks were certain to complicate almost all prosecutions for sexual assault. > > “Unlawful command influence” refers to actions of commanders that could be interpreted by jurors as an attempt to influence a court-martial, in effect ordering a specific outcome. Mr. Obama, as commander in chief of the armed forces, is considered the most powerful person to wield such influence. > > The president’s remarks might have seemed innocuous to civilians, but military law experts say defense lawyers will seize on the president’s call for an automatic dishonorable discharge, the most severe discharge available in a court-martial, arguing that his words will affect their cases. Is my impression incorrect? These are just incidencts that spring to mind offhand - I’ve not made an exhaustive search about this - but when I see a remark from Obama that seems off the cuff without consideration of the facts or import it kind of feels like a rerun. Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/2 "2013-07-15T17:58:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I could be wrong, but ISTM that President Obama has a habit of making poorly thought out, off-the-cuff public remarks about matters, without enough consideration of the situation and the import of his words. > > One example is much in the news of late, that being his initial response to the Trayvon Martin shooting. Let me guess: you were reading Roger L. Simon, weren’t you? > [@Roger L. Simon](#): > > By injecting himself in a minor Florida criminal case by implying Martin could be his son, the president of the United States — a onetime law lecturer, of all things — disgraced himself and his office, made a mockery of our legal system and exacerbated racial tensions in our country, making them worse than they have been in years. This is the work of a reactionary, someone who consciously/unconsciously wants to push our nation back to the 1950s. Is this what you wanted to debate? Or part of it? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/3 "2013-07-15T18:02:44Z")
I was not reading Roger L. Simon (nor have I recall having ever heard of such a person). Please don’t read anything into my words beyond what’s actually there. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/4 "2013-07-15T18:04:37Z")
Okay. I just found the timing interesting, and wondered if the quoted op-ed had inspired you. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/5 "2013-07-15T18:07:26Z")
The timing is not a complete coincidence. A good percentage of the stories about this very-much-in-the-news incident mention the president’s words, which certainly helps bring the issue to mind. But I devoted the bulk of the OP to quotes from two other stories, one of which ran 2 days ago, and the other a couple of months ago. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/6 "2013-07-15T18:08:33Z")
I could be wrong, but ISTM that SDMB poster **Fotheringay-Phipps** has a habit of making poorly thought out, off-the-cuff public remarks about matters, without enough consideration of the situation and the import of his words. One example is this thread. Is my impression incorrect? This is just one incident that sprang to mind offhand - I’ve not made an exhaustive search about this - but when I see a remark from **Fotheringay-Phipps** that seems off the cuff without consideration of the facts or import it kind of feels like a rerun. Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/7 "2013-07-15T18:26:11Z")
Let’s make sure this man is never elected President again! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/8 "2013-07-15T18:30:02Z")
I could be wrong, but ISTM that President \ has a habit of making poorly thought out, off-the-cuff public remarks about matters, without enough consideration of the situation and the import of his words. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/9 "2013-07-15T18:32:11Z")
To answer the OP, the President is going to say a lot of things. There will always be multiple ways to interpret what he says. Some people will choose to interpret his remarks in the worst possible way and imagine the greatest harm will result. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/10 "2013-07-15T18:43:54Z")
Can you list some comparable examples with other presidents? [Note: there’s a difference between things that you disagree with or think to be stupid or which in retrospect turn out to be mistakes, and things that are just not thought out at the time.] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/11 "2013-07-15T18:46:19Z")
It seems to me that whenever someone has his every utterance recorded and analyzed by thousands of people that you’re going to find lots of gaffes. But the president should know not to comment about any ongoing criminal investigation. I know it’s hard because you want SO BADLY to say SOMETHING. And if you don’t, you know there will be outcry that you DIDN’T say anything. Fortunately, you know that you will lead a fabulously wealthy lifestyle when you’re done with that rat race thing of the presidency, so there’s that! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/12 "2013-07-15T19:02:27Z")
I think Obama considers his words carefully but often is surprised, like many sane people are, of the extreme depth of hatred manifested in conservative circles against him. It is perfectly fine to say the things he said. It is not fine to react to everything he said like its the end of the world ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/13 "2013-07-15T19:06:22Z")
For some reason, people seem to be focusing exclusively on the Trayvon Martin case. (The Gates/Crowley incident is also comparable.) But I listed two recent incidents where US foreign and judicial policy are being directly impacted by off-the-cuff remarks. (Neither of these are particularly ideological in nature.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/14 "2013-07-15T19:09:31Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Can you list some comparable examples with other presidents? > > [Note: there’s a difference between things that you disagree with or think to be stupid or which in retrospect turn out to be mistakes, and things that are just not thought out at the time.] Were you asleep during Junior Bush’s two terms? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/15 "2013-07-15T19:25:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Can you list some comparable examples with other presidents? Practically everything Reagan ever said in public, and practically anything W ever said period. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/16 "2013-07-15T19:25:43Z")
[We begin bombing in five minutes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_begin_bombing_in_five_minutes) Considering the stakes involved and the geo-political situation at the time, this was not only more stupid than anything Obama has said while President, it was more stupid than the sum of all stupid things Obama has said in his life including as a toddler. In general I agree that considering the vast number of things a President has to speak about and the numerous ways something can come out wrong it’s inevitable that there there will be a few gaffes. On the whole Obama seems more careful than most. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/17 "2013-07-15T19:41:32Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > [We begin bombing in five minutes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_begin_bombing_in_five_minutes) > > Considering the stakes involved and the geo-political situation at the time, this was not only more stupid than anything Obama has said while President, it was more stupid than the sum of all stupid things Obama has said in his life including as a toddler. > > In general I agree that considering the vast number of things a President has to speak about and the numerous ways something can come out wrong it’s inevitable that there there will be a few gaffes. On the whole Obama seems more careful than most. Completely different. That was meant as a joke, and said by Reagan when he thought the mikes were not turned on. We’re talking here about things said in earnest, and deliberately in public. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/18 "2013-07-15T19:43:06Z")
Also, it was not addressed to the public altogether, per the linked Wiki article, but was a leaked private remark. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/19 "2013-07-15T19:44:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Can you list some comparable examples with other presidents? > > [Note: there’s a difference between things that you disagree with or think to be stupid or which in retrospect turn out to be mistakes, and things that are just not thought out at the time.] How about “Mission Accomplished!”? That was a good one. Or, 'heck of a job, Brownie"? Or, “I’m sure the people of Poland don’t consider themselves under the yoke of the Soviet Union”? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574/20 "2013-07-15T19:47:07Z")
These are exactly the types of things I was thinking of when I excluded “things that you disagree with or think to be stupid or which in retrospect turn out to be mistakes”. (Also: “bring it on”) I don’t think these are the same things at all. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-obamas-mouth/663574.md?page=2)