# President of the US **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 14, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987 "2010-01-14T21:01:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![copperwindow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@copperwindow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/copperwindow)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/1 "2010-01-14T21:01:21Z")
Who becomes the leader of our nation if the President and Vice President were to die in the same day? ---
**Author:** ![TerpBE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc8723/32.png) [@TerpBE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TerpBE)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/2 "2010-01-14T21:04:00Z")
In order: # Office Current Officer 1 Vice President Joe Biden 2 Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi 3 President pro tempore of the Senate Robert Byrd 4 Secretary of State Hillary Clinton 5 Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner 6 Secretary of Defense Robert Gates[2] 7 Attorney General Eric Holder 8 Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar 9 Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack 10 Secretary of Commerce Gary Locke 11 Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis 12 Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius 13 Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Shaun Donovan 14 Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood 15 Secretary of Energy Steven Chu 16 Secretary of Education Arne Duncan 17 Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric Shinseki 18 Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/3 "2010-01-14T21:05:35Z")
The Speaker of the House. [Order of Presidential Succession](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession#Current_order) ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/4 "2010-01-14T21:05:46Z")
> [@TerpBE](#): > > In order: > > # Office Current Officer > > 1 Vice President Joe Biden > 2 Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi > 3 President pro tempore of the Senate Robert Byrd > 4 Secretary of State Hillary Clinton > 5 Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner > 6 Secretary of Defense Robert Gates[2] > 7 Attorney General Eric Holder > 8 Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar > 9 Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack > 10 Secretary of Commerce Gary Locke > 11 Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis > 12 Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius > 13 Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Shaun Donovan > 14 Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood > 15 Secretary of Energy Steven Chu > 16 Secretary of Education Arne Duncan > 17 Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric Shinseki > 18 Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano Sure, but what if they were all on the same doomed flight together. Then what? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/5 "2010-01-14T21:06:35Z")
> [@TerpBE](#): > > In order: > > # Office Current Officer > > 18 Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano This raises the question of where the order of succession is defined that deep, and for agencies that new… ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/6 "2010-01-14T21:09:19Z")
Which Tom Clancy novel was it, where the Japanese commercial airliner crashes into the U.S. capital building during some formal swearing in event with both houses and the president, vice president, and every chief justice in attendance? Everyone dies and Jack Ryan ends up as the President. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/7 "2010-01-14T21:11:55Z")
> [@Wilbo523](#): > > Which Tom Clancy novel was it, where the Japanese commercial airliner crashes into the U.S. capital building during some formal swearing in event with both houses and the president, vice president, and every chief justice in attendance? Everyone dies and Jack Ryan ends up as the President. I believe that Jack Ryan had been appointed VP scant moments before the event in that novel. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/8 "2010-01-14T21:12:07Z")
> [@Wilbo523](#): > > Which Tom Clancy novel was it, where the Japanese commercial airliner crashes into the U.S. capital building during some formal swearing in event with both houses and the president, vice president, and every chief justice in attendance? Everyone dies and Jack Ryan ends up as the President. Debt of Honor. And it wasn’t that everybody died. Ryan had just been sworn in as Vice President before the plane hit the Capitol. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/9 "2010-01-14T21:15:11Z")
They make sure the Prez and the Veep aren’t ever on the same plane. ---
**Author:** ![ChrisBooth12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@ChrisBooth12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisBooth12)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/10 "2010-01-14T21:19:18Z")
dont they start picking speakers from the states based on order they became a state? all the way down the list. its pretty complex almost like the royal family but not quiet ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/11 "2010-01-14T21:21:16Z")
And a cabinet member not in the line of succession is always deliberately excluded from ceremonies, like the State of the Union speech, to which all the others are expected to attend. That person is at a safe distance in case of a nuclear attack or an alien invasion or, well, anything. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/12 "2010-01-14T21:22:11Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > This raises the question of where the order of succession is defined that deep, and for agencies that new… The Presidential Succession Act spells it out First come the VP, Speaker, and Senate pro tem, then the cabinet officers in the order in which their departments were created. So by law, the newly created Department of Homeland Security was added to the bottom of the list in 2002. Any subsequently created departments would follow that. When an agency is disbanded or a position is dropped from the cabinet (eg., Post Master General), they are removed from the succession list. The Speaker of the House and President pro tempore of the Senate were added to the top of the list in 1947 by an act of Congress. President Truman argued that the nation’s highest elected officials should take precedence over appointed officials. ---
**Author:** ![pan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@pan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pan1)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/13 "2010-01-14T21:26:58Z")
The bottom line is that we have a contingency plan and it goes down 18 positions. If someone nuked D.C. on the wrong day we’d lose everyone in the plan and we’d be without a president or a plan to get a new one. I’d assume martial law would take effect and the ranking military officer in the country would maintain order. The existing laws would replace the positions of Speaker of the House and President Pro-tempore of the Senate(either immediately, as some congressman or senator probably was out of the area at any given time, or later as the states would follow the rules to choose new ones) and thus repopulate the presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/14 "2010-01-14T21:28:06Z")
> [@](#): > > This raises the question of where the order of succession is defined that deep, and for agencies that new… All cabinet members are on the order of succession, and in the order of the creation of their agencies. Homeland Security was the most recently-created Cabinet-level agency, so the Secretary of Homeland Security is the last on the line of succession. And if you think that’s a deep line of succession, take a look at any monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/15 "2010-01-14T21:31:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > All cabinet members are on the order of succession, and in the order of the creation of their agencies. Homeland Security was the most recently-created Cabinet-level agency, so the Secretary of Homeland Security is the last on the line of succession. > > And if you think that’s a deep line of succession, take a look at any monarchy. Not that 18 is excessive, but (and I don’t have time to look today) I thought this was all covered in the Const. itself until the Cabinet part, and after that, didn’t know where it comes from. Gotta see more cites personally about the Truman claim, seems to me I recall reading more about this in the Constitutional Debates, which makes me wonder if ti didn’t happen, or why it would wait until 194 to happen. Of course I could be wrong, just no time to check right now. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/16 "2010-01-14T21:32:52Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And a cabinet member not in the line of succession is always deliberately excluded from ceremonies, like the State of the Union speech, to which all the others are expected to attend. That person is at a safe distance in case of a nuclear attack or an alien invasion or, well, anything. Yep. He or she is typically referred to as the “designated successor” or “designated survivor”. There is a list of who has served as the designated survivor on wikipedia: > **[Designated survivor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_survivor)** > > In the United States, a designated survivor (or designated successor) is a person in the presidential line of succession who is kept distant from others in the line when they are gathered together, to reduce the chance that everyone in the line will be unable to take over the presidency in a catastrophic or mass-casualty event. The person is chosen to stay at an undisclosed secure location, away from events such as State of the Union addresses and presidential inaugurations. The designation of a... ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/17 "2010-01-14T21:37:02Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And a cabinet member not in the line of succession is always deliberately excluded from ceremonies, like the State of the Union speech, to which all the others are expected to attend. That person is at a safe distance in case of a nuclear attack or an alien invasion or, well, anything. Don’t you mean a “cabinet member in the line of succession”? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/18 "2010-01-14T21:39:11Z")
> [@ChrisBooth12](#): > > dont they start picking speakers from the states based on order they became a state? all the way down the list. its pretty complex almost like the royal family but not quiet No, that has nothing to do with it. Speakers are chosen due to political considerations. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/19 "2010-01-14T21:44:46Z")
To start with, any formal event is missing either the Vice Prexsident or one cabinet member, who is the designated successor-in-case-of-disaster for that event. The Inauguration, the State of the Union Address, etc. – one cabinet member is selected – I think they do it on a rotating basis by lot – to visit Ames IA or Fort Pierce FL or Casper WY, at the time the rest are convened at the Capital. Let’s not forget that under the 25th Amendment, the President (whether the guy elected in November or the guy succeeding under the Succession Act) nominates a Vice President who takes office after receiving a majority vote in each house of Congress. So if Joe Biden keeled over tomorrow, Mr. Obama would nominate someone to serve as Vice President, and the Senate and House would ‘elect’ him to the job by ratifying the President’s choice. The 18-deep list is there in case of natural disaster, terrorist attack, etc., taking out a large group of the potential successors simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![mil0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@mil0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mil0)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987/20 "2010-01-14T21:58:21Z")
I have a question related to this. Now I know this is highly unrealistic and totally the product of an unrestrained imagination lacking any sort of mental acuity – but try to bear with me. Say, a hypothetical bomb managed to kill the following at the exact same time: 0 President Obama 1 Vice President Joe Biden 2 Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi 3 President pro tempore of the Senate Robert Byrd 4 Secretary of State Hillary Clinton The person who committed this egregious crime would be none other than Mister Timothy Geithner. Now, indulge me further and let’s pretend he wasn’t caught until after he was sworn in. In this outlandish scenario of mine, after his plot was discovered and he was convicted, would the new VP, (or more likely from what I understand the President pro tem) be raised to being a POTUS or would the original line of succession still be in effect? Would the office of president go to Timothy Geithner’s new VP, Robert Gates or Daniel Inouye(or maybe someone else)? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/president-of-the-us/524987.md?page=2)