# Presidential pardon power **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 26, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463 "2020-11-26T05:26:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/1 "2020-11-26T05:26:36Z")
So Trump has finally [pardoned Michael Flynn](https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/25/politics/trump-pardon-michael-flynn/index.html). Once again, Trump has used his pardon power to help his cronies or protect himself, rather than correct some injustice or for the benefit of the nation. Obviously this is a terrible state of affairs, not only does another lackey duck justice, but it sets the precedent that one should never cooperate with investigations that might incriminate the president. I guess for discussion, I was wondering: 1. Could the pardon power be amended to prevent this kind of misuse? How would the new pardon power be defined? 2. Would republicans vote for such an amendment? Would they prefer to keep a literal get out of jail card? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/2 "2020-11-26T05:41:09Z")
Hopeful musings: Dare we dream? > **[Former federal prosecutor says judge could void Trump's pardon for Flynn --...](https://www.rawstory.com/2020/11/former-federal-prosecutor-says-judge-could-void-trumps-pardon-for-flynn-heres-how/)** > > Former federal prosecutor Glenn Kirschner responded to President Donald Trump's pardon of retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn by saying that it's entirely possible that the judge in Flynn's case could nullify the pardon. "Just as Judge Emmet Sullivan... > [@](#): > > . . . “Just as Judge Emmet Sullivan refused to grant Barr’s corrupt motion to dismiss, I hope Judge [Emmet] Sullivan sets a hearing on whether this pardon is corrupt & hence illegal/void,” said Kirschner. Glenn Kirschner’s tweet: > > [@](#): > > Trump pardons Flynn. No surprise. This is another in what likely will be a steady stream of corrupt pardons. Just as Judge Emmet Sullivan refused to grant Barr’s corrupt motion to dismiss, I hope Judge Sullivan sets a hearing on whether this pardon is corrupt & hence illegal/void ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/3 "2020-11-26T11:40:39Z")
Presidential pardon power should be suspended between election day and the inauguration. In a better world, anyway. You want to engage in corrupt practices? You’d have to do it while the voters still have a say. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/4 "2020-11-26T21:04:03Z")
Is there anything in law that prevents Trump from pardoning himself for anything past present or future? Obviously there would be a conflict of interest, but is there anything that spells it out that a self-pardon would be void ab initio? Would malum in se apply? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/5 "2020-11-26T21:07:11Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Is there anything in law that prevents Trump from pardoning himself for anything past present or future? Not surprisingly, this has been the source of a great deal of debate over the past few years. The answer appears to be “it’s not clear that he can or can’t.” > **[After Flynn pardon, could Trump do the same for himself?](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/26/after-flynn-pardon-could-trump-do-the-same-for-himself)** > > Analysis: renewed US speculation raises number of legal and practical questions ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/6 "2020-11-26T21:27:17Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Hopeful musings: Dare we dream? My guess is that even if the judge tries to void Flynn’s pardon, the Orange Peril will take it to the Supreme Court, where the toadies he installed will dutifully do his bidding, along with the two other lunatics. John Roberts being the voice of reason – something I could never have imagined saying just a few years ago – is no longer enough, as we saw in the recent “theocracy trumps rationality” ruling, in which theocracy prevailed over COVID precautions. It’s like the Dark Ages all over again. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/7 "2020-11-26T21:33:30Z")
Do you mean like when then-President Clinton pardoned Mark Rich? Or is this just another rant against President Trump? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/8 "2020-11-26T21:49:27Z")
It’s “Marc” Rich (for Marcell). And Clinton later expressed regret for doing it. Against Marc Rich, I give you (among dozens of others) Trump pardons or commutations for: Joe Arpaio, Scooter Libby, Dinesh D’Souza, Conrad Black, Rod Blagojevich, Roger Stone, Michael Flynn, and a great many other criminal friends of his. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/9 "2020-11-26T21:49:41Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Is there anything in law that prevents Trump from pardoning himself for anything past present or future? He certainly can’t pardon himself (or anyone else) for future crimes. The Supreme Court has ruled that the act for which the pardon is issued must be in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/10 "2020-11-27T02:11:43Z")
Setting aside for the moment if he can pardon himself, I find myself wondering if the dude is even capable of issuing a pardon for himself. That would imply that he had done something wrong. That level of self-awareness is not part of his make-up. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/11 "2020-11-27T02:18:25Z")
Did he pardon Arpaio for doing something wrong, or for DOING HIS JOB The same “logic” will be applied to a self pardon ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/12 "2020-11-27T02:23:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Do you mean like when then-President Clinton pardoned Mark Rich? > > Or is this just another rant against President Trump? Firstly, it’s incredible that anyone would try to imply that this is “both sides”. As I alluded (and [wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup) elaborated), Trump has pardoned a long list of his cronies. Meanwhile you needed to go all the way back to the Clinton years to even find **one** Democrat example. But secondly, even if it were both sides, so what? I am talking about limiting the pardon power, so if it’s “both sides”, does that mean you agree? Do you think “both sides” should be able to continue to misuse this power? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/13 "2020-11-27T02:41:38Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But secondly, even if it were both sides, so what? I am talking about limiting the pardon power, so if it’s “both sides”, does that mean you agree? **Do you think “both sides” should be able to continue to misuse this power?** That’s exactly what he wants. If you can claim the other side is wallowing in the mud, you get to do it too. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/14 "2020-11-27T02:47:34Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Setting aside for the moment if he can pardon himself, I find myself wondering if the dude is even capable of issuing a pardon for himself. That would imply that he had done something wrong. That level of self-awareness is not part of his make-up. No, he will just say that he did it to protect himself against the vast conspiracy that wants to frame him. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/15 "2020-11-27T05:22:35Z")
Thanks, flurb. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardon-power/926463/16 "2020-11-27T19:24:46Z")
On the question of whether Trump can pardon himself, here is a reasonably convincing argument from a U. MO. law professor that argues that he cannot. > **[Why a Self-Pardon Is Not Constitutional](https://www.justsecurity.org/73539/why-a-self-pardon-is-not-constitutional/)** > > The 2020 election results are in. Joseph R. Biden, Jr. is the President-Elect of the United States of America. Sometime before January 20, 2021, Donald Trump will recognize the inevitable (even if he may never publicly admit it) and prepare to leave... How SCOTUS would respond is another matter.