# Presidential pardons - proposed restrictions **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 9, 2022, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575 "2022-04-09T10:42:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2022, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/21 "2022-04-09T21:04:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, if trump does say “Pardon me, while I whip this out” 😛 The Supreme Court can rule no secret pardons, without touching on self- pardons. While Laurence Tribe may find a secret pardon to have a “Constitutional cloud” over it (whatever that means), there’s nothing in the Constitution or caselaw to suggest that a pardon must be publicly disclosed. There are _practical_ issues such as being able to authenticate that the pardon was in fact issued while the President was in office, but I have a hard time believing the SC would find a secret pardon to be _ipso facto_ unconstitutional. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if secret pardons have been issued in the course of intelligence work. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2022, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/22 "2022-04-09T22:46:34Z")
Many excellent posts here. I don’t think I would disagree with an amendment whereby a president may not pardon close friends and family, but as a part of it _someone_ must be able to. > [@Smapti](#): > > I suggest abolishing the pardon entirely. The president is not a king and should not be allowed to make exceptions to the rule of law. Executive pardons are not because someone is a “king” but a realization that the law, while okay generally, sometimes has an improperly harsh circumstance in an individual case and there needs to be a safety valve. The objection to Trump on this issue seems to be that Trump is an asshole and we shouldn’t elect a guy like Trump in the first place. Well, we have a remedy for that…rule by the people and all. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/23 "2022-04-10T15:25:35Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Executive pardons are not because someone is a “king” but a realization that the law, while okay generally, sometimes has an improperly harsh circumstance in an individual case and there needs to be a safety valve. Yup. The three strikes and you’re out comes to mind. Simple MJ possession could get you life in prison? Um, no. I doubt that Trump had the forethought to pre-pardon himself. He believes he can’t do anything wrong. That’s his entire id. I wonder if a pre-pardon for any federal crimes committed would also cover his tax evasions? The list goes on, and on and on… If he did pre-pardon, I suspect that it will go before SCOTUS. There might be a chance there. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/24 "2022-04-10T15:42:13Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Simple MJ possession could get you life in prison? Um, no. Who is doing life for simple possession of weed? > [@enipla](#): > > I doubt that Trump had the forethought to pre-pardon himself. He believes he can’t do anything wrong. That’s his entire id. This seems to be the left wing equivalent of Q Anon stuff. Is there any evidence that Trump did this? In any event, he cannot pardon himself from state prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/25 "2022-04-10T16:20:51Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Is there any evidence that Trump did this? In any event, he cannot pardon himself from state prosecution. Non that I’m aware of. I understand that a pardon is only from federal prosecution. Two attorneys quit the NY stuff because their boss would not move forward with the prosecution. Yeah, if you don’t have an open and closed case, it may be hard to pursue an ex-president. From the [Chicago Tribune](https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-03-10-9603100270-story.html) Three strikes - SAN FRANCISCO — Two years after California’s tough “three strikes and you’re out” law went into effect, twice as many defendants have been imprisoned under the law for marijuana possession as for murder, rape and kidnapping combined, according to a new study. Reading it looks like two of them have to be violent crimes. But if then caught with MJ that’s it. Since MJ is mostly being legalized, it seems a bit over the top. Will Smith would already have one violent crime against him. Don’t know much about that, but Chris Rock isn’t making it a big deal which is fine IMHO. Attempting to overthrow the government is apparently just fine though. Make no mistakes, there are people taking notes. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/26 "2022-04-10T16:31:33Z")
The article seems incredibly biased as possession of weed is a misdemeanor in CA: > **[§ 11357 HS - "Possession of Marijuana" Charges in California](https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/health-and-safety-code/11357/)** > > Health & Safety Code § 11357 HS makes a crime in California to have more than 28.5 gm of marijuana, or for a person under 21 to have marijuana. It could never be used as a third strike enhancement. It seems like a guy caught with 100 pounds of weed in his trunk, with 10 prior felony convictions, complains that he is serving life for merely “possessing marijuana” when in fact he was a major drug dealer and an habitual offender. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/27 "2022-04-10T16:57:39Z")
Bit of exaggeration there, don’t you think UltraVires? 100lbs is not mentioned from what I see. We do know that people that tried to overthrow the government of the United States are just getting a slap on the wrist though. If that. It’s true that Trump did not ‘pre’ pardon them. But, mostly, I suspect that like the others before, he is perfectly happy to throw them under the bus. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/28 "2022-04-10T17:04:16Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > We do know that people that tried to overthrow the government of the United States Bit of an exaggeration there, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/29 "2022-04-10T17:05:47Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Bit of an exaggeration there, don’t you think? Not one bit. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/30 "2022-04-10T17:26:55Z")
Is there a reason pardons have to be absolute? I think if it was just limited to vacating convictions, that would answer injustices but also allow retrial in cases where pardon powers were used as patronage or for self preservation by a president. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/31 "2022-04-10T17:35:45Z")
Let’s not get into an argument about the Capitol Insurrection. There’s plenty of other threads about that and I don’t want this thread derailed. Anyway, how about this for a better way of handling pardons: The President’s pardon power is totally removed. Instead, create a commission, call it the Clemency Commission, composed of retired judges and perhaps others familiar with the judicial system. Their job is to receive all applications for clemency and grant those they deem worthwhile. Anyone convicted of a federal crime can apply, even if they haven’t exhausted all appeals. However, there will be a limit of how often anyone can apply, perhaps only once every two or three years. Don’t want to overload the system, which would happen without that restriction. There may be some restrictions on what sort of pardons the Clemency Commission can issue. I don’t have any thoughts on what those might be, but there may be some things we don’t want the commission to do. So any thoughts on this? I think it would solve pretty much all the issues there are with the current system. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/32 "2022-04-10T17:58:51Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > The President’s pardon power is totally removed. Instead, create a commission, call it the Clemency Commission, composed of retired judges and perhaps others familiar with the judicial system. I’m not a fan. Appointing members of the commission would turn into yet another political battefield. But limiting _the president’s_ pardon powers to applications for clemency from anyone convicted of a federal crime makes sense to me. It wouldn’t have prevented Trump’s noxious granting of clemency for Blagojevich, but it would avoid all these potential shenanigans around self-pardons, pre-emptive pardons and secret, pocket pardons. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/33 "2022-04-10T18:24:03Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Let’s not get into an argument about the Capitol Insurrection. Sorry, think I started throwing things off the rails. We don’t know if self pardons are even possible do we? Would such a pardon be presented to SCOTUS to rule on. A president could issue themselves a pardon from Federal tax crimes. Or any other federal crime. **For ever.** I don’t think the framers of the constitution every thought that anyone would be so deplorable to do such a thing, but we are bumping up against that edge. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/34 "2022-04-10T18:43:39Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > So any thoughts on this? It seems like it would be a court that’s higher than the Supreme Court, which isn’t supposed to exist. > [@enipla](#): > > A president could issue themselves a pardon from Federal tax crimes. Or any other federal crime. **For ever.** There must be some natural consequences following. Remember [this](https://www.forbes.com/sites/chasewithorn/2022/02/16/why-its-no-surprise-trumps-accounting-firm-is-saying-his-financial-statements-are-unreliable/?sh=20311ecc7e39)? > Mazars—the accounting firm that spent years preparing Donald Trump’s taxes and helping put together his personal statements of net worth—[told the former president](https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=KBtrXdSMDOM/z_PLUS_toDnNAjw==&system=prod) last week that it is severing ties with him, and that ten years of Trump’s balance sheets “should no longer be relied upon.” I read that and think yeah, people talk about Enron—how about Arthur Andersen? Big companies can be sucked down by their complicity. With unreliable statements for a decade, what happens when he wants future loans etc.? And who’s doing his taxes now? IANA financial guru but I assume some dominos will fall as the truth comes out and his credibility sinks. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/35 "2022-04-10T20:13:20Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > dominos will fall as the truth comes out and his credibility sinks. Can’t get any lower IMHO. Gonna need shovels to get DJT credibility any lower. Who would get in ANY financial transaction with him? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/36 "2022-04-10T20:58:16Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I’m not a fan. Appointing members of the commission would turn into yet another political battefield. Possibly, but since it won’t be ruling on Constitutional or regulatory issues, I wouldn’t expect nearly as much of that. And if we’re creative enough in how the members are selected, that maybe could be avoided altogether. > [@enipla](#): > > A president could issue themselves a pardon from Federal tax crimes. Or any other federal crime. **For ever.** Pardons can only be issued for actions that have already taken place. So even if a self-pardon is allowed, the President can’t pardon himself for something he does in the future. > [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > It seems like it would be a court that’s higher than the Supreme Court, which isn’t supposed to exist. I’m not sure how you see it that way. The Clemency Commission will not rule on Constitutional issues or anything like that. Just on whether to commute sentences and similar. How is that higher than the SCOTUS? At any rate, it would take a Constitutional amendment to remove the President’s pardon power, so the Commission could be allowed for in the same amendment. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/37 "2022-04-10T21:48:24Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > I’m not sure how you see it that way. The Clemency Commission will not rule on Constitutional issues or anything like that. Just on whether to commute sentences and similar. How is that higher than the SCOTUS? I’m thinking of cases where the lawyers take it all the way to the SCOTUS and either they refuse to hear it or head it but re-iterate nope, in jail you stay. The Presidential pardon can overturn that. If you have a “Clemency Commission” they’d be overruling the Supreme Court in some cases. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2022, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/38 "2022-04-11T04:57:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I suggest abolishing the pardon entirely. The president is not a king and should not be allowed to make exceptions to the rule of law. What substitute mechanism would you propose to correct miscarriages of justice? And please don’t rely on district attorneys – the average district attorney **will not** admit that he might have made a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2022, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/39 "2022-04-11T05:17:21Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > What substitute mechanism would you propose to correct miscarriages of justice? A more robust appeals process with increased funding for public defenders, plea bargain reform, and a better funded legal system overall to eliminate judicial backlogs. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2022, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575/40 "2022-04-11T05:57:26Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I’m not a fan. Appointing members of the commission would turn into yet another political battefield. I agree. Whether this is a 3, 7, 9, 11 or 29 member commission it will be filled with Senate confirmation hearings regarding how “soft on crime” the members are. A disaster. > [@Smapti](#): > > A more robust appeals process with increased funding for public defenders, plea bargain reform, and a better funded legal system overall to eliminate judicial backlogs. We could be on to something here especially regarding plea bargaining. In my experience with the system this process is the most antithetical to justice. If I was innocent, I would take a deal for 5 years instead of taking the chance of spending the rest of my life in prison. But none of that tests the strength of the State’s case. It has just hung a sword over my head and made my decision a very rational one, but not one that leads to any truth finding function. Plus a guilty person would gladly take five years, but an innocent person would be tempted to take it to the box. (jail slang for demanding a jury trial). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-pardons-proposed-restrictions/962575.md?page=3)