# Presidential prayers **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 27, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535 "2001-04-27T14:05:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/1 "2001-04-27T14:05:58Z")
Last night, there was an interview with “our” president, and he said how he starts every morning with prayer. Has there ever been a president who didn’t? An atheistic president that we know about? Or do you have to talk the talk to be elected? ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/2 "2001-04-27T15:36:57Z")
“Please God don’t let me say anything stupid today!” I suspect that a heathen candidate would have a hard time getting elected in this country. Surely many questions about faith, morals & family\* would arise during interviews & debates. A candidate who doesn’t live his life according to his religious doctrine will probably not have marketable answers to many of these questions. He will some how seem less moral to the voters. Worse, a presdient who feels he will never have to answer to any “higher authority” (discounting, for a moment, the people who put him in office) may, with a feeling of utter impunity, take the country in unpredictable directions. \*Not to say that heathens aren’t faithful (to something) or don’t have morals or don’t maintain healthy family units, but I think the general public perception is that some kind of religion (whether or not it’s the one the voter belongs to) makes a person somehow “better” or more enlightened. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/3 "2001-04-27T15:43:37Z")
I don’t remember names at the moment, but I seem to remember that we’ve had a Deist president. Then again, that was back in the Olden Days, when deism was well-accepted by the populace, and common among the educated class, so it wouldn’t have hindered him much. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/4 "2001-04-27T16:19:06Z")
I smell great debates coming… vanilla, I don’t know of any outright atheist presidents. There were a number of Deist presidents. But I don’t know if anyone can answer “Has there ever been a president who didn’t [start the day with a prayer]?” After all, who’s to say that the religious presidents started the day with a prayer? Maybe some of them were like me - not coherent for a good 30 minutes after crawling out of bed. 😉 Regarding the appearance of religion - certainly with our current climate a political candidate had better appear religious. Look at all the turmoil over Jesse Ventura for his comments in that Playboy interview. Sure, Jesse has a number of traits that don’t endear him to everyone, but he was seriously being encouraged as a Presidential candidate up until that interview, and the one thing that ticked off more people was his comments specifically about religion. He showed doubts about it, from his own personal experiences, and he was hammered for it. Also, can you see a president being elected who is a self-avowed Muslim? Buddhist? We barely had a catholic elected. Attrayant said: > [@](#): > > Worse, a presdient who feels he will never have to answer to any “higher authority” (discounting, for a moment, the people who put him in office) may, with a feeling of utter impunity, take the country in unpredictable directions. Definitely GD territory here. As an atheist, I’m somewhat offended by this remark. You are implying that only an atheist would “take this country in unpredictable directions”. Leaving aside for the moment that maybe unpredictable directions would be a good thing, lets take this statement on the implied negative context. You are saying that only someone without a religious nature would be evil in office. Hardly. Consider the strong motivations of someone who felt they were doing God’s will. What do you think this country would look like if Pat Robertson or Pat Buchanon was elected? You think we wouldn’t have negative consequences? (I suspect these wouldn’t qualify as “unpredictable”.) While it is true a person without a “higher authority” of an afterlife to worry about _might_ be inclined to make personal choices, there is pretty good evidence that people who do think of an afterlife are just as greedy, self-centered, irrational, and vain. Frankly, it is comments just like yours that make it unlikely - too many people share that baseless attitude. Not that I’d want to be president to offset that mentality. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/5 "2001-04-27T18:14:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*I don’t remember names at the moment, but I seem to remember that we’ve had a Deist president. Then again, that was back in the Olden Days, when deism was well-accepted by the populace, and common among the educated class, so it wouldn’t have hindered him much. \*\* I’ve heard Washington, Jefferson, and Madison were all deists. Many of the Founding Fathers were. In _Six Historic Americans_ (1906), John E. Remsburg makes the arguement that [Washington](http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html), [Jefferson](http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_2.html), [Lincoln](http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_5.html), and [Grant](http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_6.html) were not Christian. (The other two Americans in his book are Thomas Paine and Benjamin Franklin.) The [table of contents](http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/franklin_steiner/presidents.html) to _The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents_, by Franklin Steiner, includes a list of the religious affiliations of our presidents through FDR. Several presidents are listed as not being members of any church or “whose religious views are doubtful.” The site also includes excerpts from the book. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/6 "2001-04-27T22:11:02Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Irishman_: > > You are implying that only an atheist would “take this country in unpredictable directions”. Perhaps I jumped into character a little too convincingly. I was attempting to become a religion-driven voter and speak from that persona. I am personally athiest, and feel that I would never win the presidency because of people who think along the lines of _godlessness = evil_. > [@](#): > > You are saying that only someone without a religious nature would be evil in office. Nope. Not saying that either. What I said is that they would be “unpredictable”. Voters (many, not all) who think _religion = good_ are always going to try to assasinate the character of the non-religious especially if the non-religious are running for the highest office in the land. “Unpredictable” might be a word in their arsenal of rhetoric because it allows one to imply _dangerous_ without coming right out and saying _evil_. I will be the first to say that belief in mythology doesn’t make a person a better president, any more than it makes them a better CEO, chef, architect or carpenter 😉 but it makes you more marketable if you just happen to believe in the most popular mythology. As I said in my last paragraph, people who aren’t aligned with any particular religious belief can still be faithful (in something), moral and have healthy family units. What I was tryign to say was that, since the majority of people in this country probably belong to (or align themselves with) _some_ sort of religious belief, athiests will always be looked down upon without even being given the benefit of a first impression. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2001, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/7 "2001-04-28T00:48:00Z")
Yeah, Jefferson was deist. According to Alan J. Brinkley, the guy who wrote my American history textbook. Deists do believe in God, just that he left after creating the world. Jefferson did make quite a few references to God in his quotes though. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2001, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/8 "2001-04-28T02:29:32Z")
Heck, I’d be surprise if there were any Senators or Congressmen who didn’t at least claim some kind of religious faith. Maybe there’s a state legislator somewhere, but I bet not many. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2001, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/9 "2001-04-28T03:03:00Z")
I saw a poll taken of the members of Congress a little more than a year ago. They were asked what religion they belonged to. All except 7 (of the 535) gave a (putatively) Christian or a Jewish denomination. (I say “putatively” because I don’t wish to argue whether Unitarians, Mormons, and Christian Scientists are Christian or a heresy thereof.) Admittedly, a lot of these people were giving just the name of the church that they were failing to go to each Sunday. Interestingly, none of them claimed to be a Moslem, a Hindu, a Buddhist, or anything more exotic. The poll had the number of members cross-listed by denomination and party membership. This was really interesting. Take a guess: What proportion of the members of Congress who were Baptists was Democratic and what proportion was Republican? How about Methodist? Lutheran? Presbyterian? Episcopalian? Catholic? Mormon? Unitarian? Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2001, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/10 "2001-04-28T04:48:01Z")
George Washington was a practicing Anglican and (later) Episcopalian. He attended church services weekly, and there’s no reason to doubt that he was a Christian. John Adams was a Unitarian, and did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, which makes him a non-Christian, in my book. His son, John Quincy Adams, was also a Unitarian… but came around to more conventional Christian beliefs, to the chagrin of his father. Abraham Lincoln is an odd case. I certainly won’t claim him as a conventional Christian… but categorizing him ANY way requires us to ignore evidence to the contrary. Lincoln was equally capable of praising God and of cursing Him. In his writings, he sometimes calls Christianity a cruel hoax, but at other times, he seems to embrace it. Which of those opinions reflects the “real” Lincoln? Well, they BOTH do! People can’t always be pigeonholed. ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2001, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/11 "2001-04-28T05:25:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > **George Washington was a practicing Anglican and (later) Episcopalian. He attended church services weekly, and there’s no reason to doubt that he was a Christian.** Remsburg’s book raises doubts about that. From the beginning of [his chapter on Washington](http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html): > [@](#): > > Washington was not a communicant. This fact can be easily demonstrated. A century ago it was the custom of all classes, irrespective of their religious beliefs, to attend church. Washington, adhering to the custom, attended. But when the administration of the sacrament took place, instead of remaining and partaking of the Lord’s Supper as a communicant would have done, he invariably arose and retired from the church. From analysis of Washington’s own words and actions and the words of those who knew him, including some members of the Christian clergy, Remsburg makes a strong case that Washington wasn’t a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2001, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/12 "2001-04-28T14:54:49Z")
Everybody who’s been to the Jefferson Memorial has seen his stirring immortal words engraved in marble for all the world to see: “I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” But what they don’t see is the full context of this remark, which had been carefully removed. It comes from a letter Jefferson wrote to Benjamin Rush: > [@](#): > > **"The clergy … believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."** ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2001, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/13 "2001-04-29T02:07:20Z")
That George Washington attended church every week but did not receive communion proves only that he was a low churchman, and had no Catholic tendencies. Within Washington’s social circles, there was no stigma attached to those who were not devout Christians. Indeed, a certain skepticism toward religion in general was par for the course among Enlightenment era aristocrats. Frankly, I have a hard time believing that Washington would attend church purely for the sake of appearances, and then leave before communion, thereby undoing the P.R. benefits he might have gained through hypocrisy. In short, IF Washington were enough of a phony to go to a Church he didn’t believe in and say prayers to a Christ he didn’t believe in, why not be a TOTAL phony and receive Communion, for appearance’s sake? As far as I can see, he was a Christian who didn’t believe in transubstantiation. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2001, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/14 "2001-04-29T02:55:28Z")
Just a hijack here, but I was under the impression that [communion](http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=33754&tocid=0) (along with baptism) is, in some form or another, practically universal among Christians, whether or not they are transubstantiationists. Maybe Washington was a Quaker, though–they’ve apparently given it up entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2001, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidential-prayers/63535/15 "2001-04-29T19:21:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > \*\*As far as I can see, he was a Christian who didn’t believe in transubstantiation. \*\* Well, we could look at statements made by the leaders, Bishop White and Dr. Abercromble, of the church he attended. From [Remsburg](http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html#2) (italics in original): > [@](#): > > In the absence of any recorded statements from Washington himself concerning his religious belief, the most conclusive evidence that can be presented is > the admissions of his clerical acquaintances. Among these there has been preserved the testimony of his pastors, Bishop White and Dr. Abercromble. > > In a letter to Rev. B.C.C. Parker of Massachusetts, dated Nov. 28, 1832, in answer to some inquiries respecting Washington’s religion, Bishop White says: > > _“His behavior [in church] was always serious and attentive, but as your letter seems to intend an inquiry on the point of kneeling during the > service, I owe it to the truth to declare that I never saw him in the said attitude. … Although I was often in company with this great man, and had > the honor of dining often at his table, I never heard anything from him which could manifest his opinions on the subject of religion. … Within a > few days of his leaving the presidential chair, our vestry waited on him with an address prepared and delivered by me. In his answer he was > pleased to express himself gratified by what he had heard from our pulpit; but there was nothing that committed him relatively to religious > theory” (“Memoir of Bishop White,” pp. 189-191; Sparks’ “Life of Washington,” Vol. ii., p. 359)._ > > The Rev. Parker, to whom Bishop White’s letter is addressed, was, it seems, anxious to obtain some evidence that Washington was a believer in > Christianity, and, not satisfied with the bishop’s answer, begged him, it would appear, to tax his mind for some fact that would tend to show that > Washington was a believer. In a letter dated Dec. 21, 1832, the bishop writes as follows: > > _“I do not believe that any degree of recollection will bring to my mind any fact which would prove General Washington to have been a > believer in the Christian revelation further than as may be hoped from his constant attendance upon Christian worship, in connection with the > general reserve of his character” (“Memoir of Bishop White,” p. 193)._ > > Bishop White’s testimony does not afford positive proof of Washington’s unbelief, but it certainly furnishes strong presumptive evidence of its truth. It is > hardly possible to suppose that he could have been a believer and have let his most intimate Christian associates remain in total ignorance of the fact. > Bishop White indulges a faint hope that he may have been, but this hope is simply based on his “constant attendance” at church, and when we consider > how large a proportion of those who attend church are unbelievers, that many of our most radical Freethinkers are regular church-goers, there are very > small grounds, I think, upon which to indulge even a hope. But even this “constant attendance” on the part of Washington cannot be accepted without > some qualification; for, while it is true that he often attended church, he was by no means a constant attendant. Not only did he uniformly absent himself on communion days, but the entries in his diary show that he remained away for several Sundays in succession, spending his time at home reading and > writing, riding out into the country, or in visiting his friends. > > But if Bishop White cherished a faint hope that Washington had some faith in the religion of Christ, Dr. Abercrombie did not. Long after Washington’s > death, in reply to Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him as to his illustrious auditor’s religious views, Dr. Abercrombie’s brief but emphatic answer was: > > _“Sir, Washington was a Deist.”_ > > Washington rarely attended, as we have seen, any church but the Episcopal, hence, if any denomination of Christians could claim him as an adherent, it > was this one. Yet here we have two of its most distinguished representatives, pastors of the churches which he attended, the one not knowing what his > belief was, the other disclaiming him and asserting that he was a Deist. Moderators, I apologize if I’ve included too much text from the original.