# Presidents and religion - smart enough to lie, or dumb enough to believe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872 "2011-04-10T15:51:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/81 "2011-04-11T15:01:59Z")
> [@Marquez](#): > > But having god-fearing supreme court judges doesn’t prove the existence of a god Of course not. I said Obama’s J.D. does not indicate he’s an atheist. There’s no such thing as being too smart for religion and that attitude makes atheists look smug. > [@](#): > > which are totally incompatible with academia and high levels of learning where you are taught to question everything and base your assumptions on empirical evidence and fact. Totally incompatible. Again, this is my own opinion and I am not attacking the religious views of others. Mind if I ask what your level of education is? Higher education unfortunately does not cure people of being dogmatic (about religion or other things) even if people who have more education are generally less religious. And even if highly educated people are less religious than the population at large, that doesn’t give you specific insight into the beliefs of any one educated individual. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/82 "2011-04-11T15:05:11Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > You’d rather believe that Obama was a bald-faced liar, and so manipulative that he would attend church for years to foster a false image of religiosity, rather than believe he is actually religious? People who doubt Obama’s religiosity and still support him should consider this closely. My support for him would go waaaay down if I thought he did the former. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/83 "2011-04-11T15:13:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Enough. Your posts on this topic are getting insulting and out of line for this forum. Stick to the argument without commenting on the intelligence and reading ability of other posters. > > I realize this is a debate about religion and that includes how religion affects elections and politicians, but this debate about the purported stupidity of religion is off-topic. This thread isn’t debating religion itself. In defense of CP, I think I was being more obnoxious. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/84 "2011-04-11T15:17:08Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > There would be no religion without curiosity. And religion couldn’t persist with any consistency without _in_curiosity. The only way your version works is if every person made up their own individual beliefs. How long would Christianity last, say, if children were banned from the churches, left on their own to discover it when they reach 18? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/85 "2011-04-11T15:27:32Z")
[quote=“CitizenPained, post:59, topic:577872”] > [@](#): > > Celebrating Christmas because you like presents is NOT the same thing as being culturally Jewish. I would appreciate your not trivializing my cultural beliefs, nor presuming that you understand them. I know that Christian tradition only goes back a couple of thousand years, but in that time my ancestors did indeed develop an actual culture that is somewhat more complicated than anticipation of presents. ---
**Author:** ![Marquez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Marquez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marquez)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/86 "2011-04-11T15:55:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Stick to the argument without commenting on the intelligence and reading ability of other posters. > [@](#): > > Mind if I ask what your level of education is? I am a postgrad since you ask. > [@](#): > > Higher education unfortunately does not cure people of being dogmatic (about religion or other things) even if people who have more education are generally less religious. Furthermore, if you are trying to imply that I am being dogmatic, then I suggest you re-read what I have written. I have been _very_ careful to state that what I am saying is my own opinion, nothing more. I am not trying to force that opinion on others, this is simply a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/87 "2011-04-11T15:58:47Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > There is a clear positive correlation between educational level and atheism/agnosticism. Do you have a cite for this? The pews of my church are filled with more than a few PhDs, JDs, MS, MBAs, etc. My church is a left progressive one near a University, which allows us to draw from a well-educated crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/88 "2011-04-11T15:59:31Z")
> [@Marquez](#): > > I am a postgrad since you ask. Good work. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, if you are trying to imply that I am being dogmatic, then I suggest you re-read what I have written. I have been _very_ careful to state that what I am saying is my own opinion, nothing more. I am not trying to force that opinion on others, this is simply a debate. I wasn’t trying to imply anything about you. I was stating something that I think is an obvious truth: educated people can certainly be dogmatic. Although for the record, you can be dogmatic without trying to force your opinion on others. Dogmatic is about the certainty with which you hold your opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Marquez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Marquez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marquez)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/89 "2011-04-11T16:04:44Z")
Yes agreed but it also about the assertiveness with which you offer those opinions and the grounds, or otherwise, upon which you base that opinion. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/90 "2011-04-11T16:28:33Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? The pews of my church are filled with more than a few PhDs, JDs, MS, MBAs, etc. My church is a left progressive one near a University, which allows us to draw from a well-educated crowd. Tush, **Algher**. You must accept the claim that religious believers are stupider and less educated than non-believers on faith. If you question or criticize it, all sorts of bad things could happen. You might even end up reading things like [this](http://www.religionomics.com/archives/archive/38/rationality-and-the-religious-mind). > [@](#): > > The distorting force of the received wisdom is underscored by the body of stylized facts that it has spawned. For example: that religion must inevitably decline as science and technology advance; that individuals become less religious and more skeptical of faith-based claims as they acquire more education, particularly more familiarity with science; and that membership in deviant religious “cults” is usually the consequence of indoctrination (leading to aberrant values) or abnormal psychology (due to trauma, neurosis, or unmet needs). Most people know these statements to be true, even though decades of research have proved them false (Hadden 1987, Stark and Bainbridge 1985, Greeley 1989). > > We argue below that the traditional view of religion as nonrational, not to mention irrational, emerged from a 19th century scholarly tradition largely devoid of empirical support and tainted by prejudice, ignorance, and antireligious sentiment. The relevant data suggest that most religious behavior is, in fact, associated with good mental health, is sensitive to perceived costs and benefits, and is compatible with scientific training. > > The data on religion and science are particularly striking. Despite continuing talk about the secularizing effects of education and academia, our analysis of data from the 1972 through 1996 General Social Surveys find that most highly educated Americans, including most professors and scientists, are as religious as other Americans. Moreover, the college faculty most acquainted with “hard” scientific knowledge – physicists, chemists, biologists, and mathematicians – are by every measure substantially more religious than their counterparts in the social sciences and humanities. It is only among anthropologists and non-clinical psychologists that we observe very high rates of disbelief and anti-religious sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/91 "2011-04-11T16:47:27Z")
> [@Marquez](#): > > Yes agreed but it also about the assertiveness with which you offer those opinions and the grounds, or otherwise, upon which you base that opinion. I think we agree about that. But you can be dogmatic without forcing your opinion on other people. I’d expect people who are dogmatic to be free with their opinions but I don’t think it’s required that they try to convince other people - just that they’re intractable in an argument. Anyway this is getting a little semantic and I was not trying to imply you’re dogmatic, so I’ll let that go. ---
**Author:** ![SimonMoon5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@SimonMoon5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SimonMoon5)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/92 "2011-04-11T17:29:50Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? From Wikipedia (not a good source, I know), I find: > [@](#): > > An international study has reported positive correlations between levels of education and not believing in a deity,[127] and the EU survey finds a positive correlation between leaving school early and believing in a God.[125] A letter published in Nature in 1998 reported a survey suggesting that belief in a personal god or afterlife was at an all-time low among the members of the U.S. National Academy of Science, 7.0% of whom believed in a personal god as compared with more than 85% of the general U.S. population.[128] In contrast, an article published by The University of Chicago Chronicle that discussed the above study, stated that 76 percent of physicians believe in God, more than the 7% of scientists above, but still less than the 85% of the general population.[129] In the same year, Frank Sulloway of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Michael Shermer of California State University conducted a study which found in their polling sample of “credentialed” U.S. adults (12% had Ph.Ds and 62% were college graduates) 64% believed in God, and there was a correlation indicating that religious conviction diminished with education level.[130] An inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence has been found by 39 studies carried out between 1927 and 2002, according to an article in Mensa Magazine.[131] These findings broadly agree with a 1958 statistical meta-analysis by Professor Michael Argyle of the University of Oxford. He analyzed seven research studies that had investigated correlation between attitude to religion and measured intelligence among school and college students from the U.S. Although a clear negative correlation was found, the analysis did not identify causality but noted that factors such as authoritarian family background and social class may also have played a part.[132] You can go to the Wikipedia article to go looking up the cites in further detail… > **[Atheism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism)** > > Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which is the belief that at least one deity exists. > Historically, evidence of atheistic viewpoints can be traced back to classical antiquity and early Indian philosophy. In the Western world, atheism declined a... ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/93 "2011-04-11T19:50:22Z")
> [@fusoya](#): > > Taft had to fight off rumors of being an atheist, so he may be a prime candidate for this thread, but I don’t know enough of his history to comment (wasn’t he the one who hated being president and counted down the days until he could go back to the SCOTUS?). > > . Where did you get any of THIS? Taft was a Unitarian. That means he was probably NOT a Christian, by most people’s standards, but not that he was an atheist. And he didn’t become a Supreme Court Justice until long AFTER he left the White House. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/94 "2011-04-11T19:57:56Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Do you have a cite for this?. There was a thread a while back with several researches showing this. > [@Algher](#): > > The pews of my church are filled with more than a few PhDs, JDs, MS, MBAs, etc. My church is a left progressive one near a University, which allows us to draw from a well-educated crowd. Eh… you’re church is left-progressive and near a university. I’m fairly sure the degrees of your fellow pewers(?) aren’t exectly representative for the average church goer. There’s also a connection between intelligence and education AND being “Left leaning progressive”. You’re church is not only next to a university, but also has the nicest flavor for university people. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a couple of atheists among those PhD’s, who like the community or is there because his or her partner is religious. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/95 "2011-04-11T20:01:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And religion couldn’t persist with any consistency without _in_curiosity. The only way your version works is if every person made up their own individual beliefs.\*\* How long would Christianity last, say, if children were banned from the churches, left on their own to discover it when they reach 18?\*\* Forbidding my son to do something? Oh wow. He’d be all over that. It would be a rite of passage. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/96 "2011-04-11T20:07:30Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > I would appreciate your not trivializing my cultural beliefs, nor presuming that you understand them. I know that Christian tradition only goes back a couple of thousand years, but in that time my ancestors did indeed develop an actual culture that is somewhat more complicated than anticipation of presents. Interesting. Since you don’t believe in God, I assumed you took a secular approach to Christmas. 😉 Most atheists I know who celebrate Christmas like the presents, the tree, the Santa, the time off work, and the ham dinner. (: That is NOTHING like being culturally Jewish. You said: > [@](#): > > Most Jews I know are pretty secular and barely religious at all, mostly seeing themselves as culturally Jewish in the same way I celebrate Christmas without buying the whole Jesus’ birthday thing. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/97 "2011-04-11T22:18:52Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Interesting. Since you don’t believe in God, I assumed you took a secular approach to Christmas. 😉 > > Most atheists I know who celebrate Christmas like the presents, the tree, the Santa, the time off work, and the ham dinner. (: > > That is NOTHING like being culturally Jewish. > > You said: I am glad you know so much about how secular Christians celebrate Christmas and are comfortable trivializing it. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/98 "2011-04-11T23:13:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Algher View Post > The pews of my church are filled with more than a few PhDs, JDs, MS, MBAs, etc. My church is a left progressive one near a University, which allows us to draw from a well-educated crowd. But do they believe in a god? As others have stated, there are many reasons to attend church unrelated to believing everything the guy or gal in front is preaching. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/99 "2011-04-12T00:07:51Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > I would appreciate your not trivializing my cultural beliefs, nor presuming that you understand them. I know that Christian tradition only goes back a couple of thousand years, but in that time my ancestors did indeed develop an actual culture that is somewhat more complicated than anticipation of presents. Can you give a specific example of a “Christian cultural belief?” ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/100 "2011-04-12T00:19:28Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > - The very story of Adam and Eve tells us that in order to advance and to ease human suffering, we must question God.\* Cite? I’ve learned it a lot of different ways and EVERY SINGLE ONE said that the source of human suffering was questioning God’s Will. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872.md?page=6)