# Presidents and religion - smart enough to lie, or dumb enough to believe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872 "2011-04-10T15:51:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/121 "2011-04-12T14:29:19Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > :rolleyes: > Give me a fucking break. You don’t have all the answers. Nobody does. > :rolleyes: I believe that was his point. I’ve never heard an atheist claim to have all the answers — atheists tend to believe in the scientific method, which says anything is subject to revision based on new evidence. It is the Religious Right who seem to think that complex issues can be reduced to simple yes or no questions, and that they know the answers to those questions. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/122 "2011-04-12T14:37:47Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Non-religious people just can’t accept the idea that brilliant people can come to a different conviction about the existence of God and nature of religion Hard to believe that anybody capable of using the internet could write that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/123 "2011-04-12T14:52:55Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > Holy shit are you really that blind? I was serious and I think there is a distinction. Now please take your vague rhetorical comments or any followup questions to ATMB so I can try to keep this thread on track. On that note, let’s call an early end to the ghost discussion and to this: > [@CitizenPained](#): > > and you think I\* never thought about it very hard\*? :o Like I just casually decided to make things more complicated? **Diogenes the Cynic** may or may not be right about compartmentalizing - although I didn’t think the idea is unreasonable - but regardless he did not make any comments about you personally, **CitizenPained**. Don’t make this unnecessarily personal and do not junior-moderate. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > All supernatural beliefs are religious. there is no such thing as the “paramormal,” and nothing that “can’t be explained by science.” This is a better subject for another thread. As you noted in another post it’s not really related to this one. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/124 "2011-04-12T16:37:39Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Non-religious people just can’t accept the idea that brilliant people can come to a different conviction about the existence of God and nature of religion, but it’s happened throughout history. > [@brocks](#): > > Hard to believe that anybody capable of using the internet could write that. I’ll cop to the overgeneralization (because there are, in fact, non-religious people who don’t have that problem). But the fact remains that indisputably brilliant minds have been “critically analyzing” theology for millenia. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/125 "2011-04-12T17:08:35Z")
You are correct, **Skammer**. Many folks on the SDMB enjoy speaking about the superior intelligence of its denizens – and to be fair, the intelligence level here is higher than in most other places. However, I also think that this claim is greatly overstated. Truly intelligent people should be more capable of understanding the viewpoints of people they disagree with, and I think that is severely lacking in this place. ---
**Author:** ![fusoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@fusoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fusoya)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/126 "2011-04-13T00:22:38Z")
Ah, Great Debates. Really, maybe I worded some things poorly in the OP, but the subject really did just intend to be on if any current/past presidents have been exaggerating their level of faith in order to appeal to the voting masses, and how the last 100 years there has been a lot less public slips-of-faith than in the previous 100 years, despite the fact that non-religious ways of life have become more tolerable (which may have something to do with the advances of science and explanations of life as we know it helping more people “see the light” rather than using religion as an excuse for where the sun goes at night or why it rains). ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/127 "2011-04-13T12:51:14Z")
> [@fusoya](#): > > Ah, Great Debates. Really, maybe I worded some things poorly in the OP, but the subject really did just intend to be on if any current/past presidents have been exaggerating their level of faith in order to appeal to the voting masses, and how the last 100 years there has been a lot less public slips-of-faith than in the previous 100 years, despite the fact that non-religious ways of life have become more tolerable See, if you really want to focus the debate on that question (which is interesting), you should really leave out the poking-religious-people-with-a-stick comments like > [@](#): > > (which may have something to do with the advances of science and explanations of life as we know it helping more people “see the light” rather than using religion as an excuse for where the sun goes at night or why it rains). ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/128 "2011-04-13T20:04:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Diogenes the Cynic** may or may not be right about compartmentalizing - although I didn’t think the idea is unreasonable - but regardless he did not make any comments about you personally, **CitizenPained**. Don’t make this unnecessarily personal and do not junior-moderate. I wasn’t trying to _moderate_. I was pointing out that there is a lot of ritual associated with certain religions, so it does seem a little weird to say people haven’t thought about what they are doing. I don’t take comments that I perceive to be ignorant as personal. :o ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/129 "2011-04-14T00:11:13Z")
What does ritual have to do with critical thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/130 "2011-04-14T00:52:15Z")
Ritual isn’t indicative of someone having thought about something…I bet if each of us sits down and thinks about our daily routine or our average week you could identify at least one ritual behavior that doesn’t really make much sense at all. Maybe it’s the order you bathe/shave/brush your teeth in, maybe it’s whether you drink a cup of coffee before or after you get out of the shower. Maybe it’s topping up your gas when you fill up your car, maybe it’s always breaking the pull-tabs off cans of soda and then dropping them into the can. There’s all kinds of things like that normal people do that aren’t indicative of thought process but just habit, habits are actually typically separated from critical thinking and that’s part of, to me, what defines them as a ritual behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/131 "2011-04-14T01:18:43Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Truly intelligent people should be more capable of understanding the viewpoints of people they disagree with, and I think that is severely lacking in this place. “Understand” isn’t a synonym for “take seriously” or “respect”. I understand the viewpoint of religious people just fine; it’s just a really, really foolish viewpoint to have. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/132 "2011-04-14T02:04:59Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Ritual isn’t indicative of someone having thought about something…I bet if each of us sits down and thinks about our daily routine or our average week you could identify at least one ritual behavior that doesn’t really make much sense at all. > > Maybe it’s the order you bathe/shave/brush your teeth in, maybe it’s whether you drink a cup of coffee before or after you get out of the shower. Maybe it’s topping up your gas when you fill up your car, maybe it’s always breaking the pull-tabs off cans of soda and then dropping them into the can. There’s all kinds of things like that normal people do that aren’t indicative of thought process but just habit, habits are actually typically separated from critical thinking and that’s part of, to me, what defines them as a ritual behavior. I’m talking 21st C. here, not Plymouth. I’m not talking about behavior that one does not notice because everyone does it. I am not talking about habits. I’m talking about certain rituals in religion that set you apart from the majority. Again, I just used the example of observant Jews to show that it can make life very complicated compared to the non religious. It’s very far from auto pilot. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/133 "2011-04-14T02:41:38Z")
But if we’re talking about Presidents, we’re talking about people who have mostly been members of mainstream Christian denominations. Not super-observant, Orthodox Jews (a population group infamously insular), mainstream Protestants and Catholics in America by and large aren’t doing things on a regular basis that sets them apart from the majority. You do know they aren’t burning sheep on the altar down at the Presbyterian church? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/134 "2011-04-14T03:47:51Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Tush, **Algher**. You must accept the claim that religious believers are stupider and less educated than non-believers on faith. If you question or criticize it, all sorts of bad things could happen. What do you make of **Algher** ’s example of a degree-heavy congregation being a **left progressive** one? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/135 "2011-04-14T04:15:38Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > This is undoubtedly true for many people, but you’re ignoring centuries of very deep religious thinkers from the Apostle Paul to Clement and Origen to Augustine, Aquinas and Anselm and Abelard and the Scholastic movement(s), to Luther and Calvin, Kierkegaard, and up into the 20th century with neo-orthodoxy, liberation theology, post-modern theology… and that doesn’t even to begin to scratch the surface of all the “sharp and analytical” minds who have applied themselves to Christianity – never mind all the brilliant minds in Judaism or Islam or other religions. > > Non-religious people just can’t accept the idea that brilliant people can come to a different conviction about the existence of God and nature of religion, but it’s happened throughout history. Fine, but let’s not lose sight of the fact that, to the extent that their convictions have differed from one another, all but one of them if not _all_ of them are _wrong_ in some of their convictions. The less you hold certain beliefs with conviction, the less wrong you are likely to be. And I think that there is a distinction to be made between a vague, liberalized theism and the various conservative fundamentalisms and orthodoxies that is relevant to some of the discussion in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/136 "2011-04-14T07:06:42Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > But if we’re talking about Presidents, we’re talking about people who have mostly been members of mainstream Christian denominations. Not super-observant, Orthodox Jews (a population group infamously insular), mainstream Protestants and Catholics in America by and large aren’t doing things on a regular basis that sets them apart from the majority. > > **You do know they aren’t burning sheep on the altar down at the Presbyterian church?** _Wow._ I made my comment in response to someone’s assertion that people who are religious don’t think about why they believe in whatever they believe in. I’m no super Orthodox Jew, but I’m pretty aware of what I’m doing. I don’t even believe/care if there is a God. I’m not convinced that many people really do care. Anyway. Bible Belt Christians are kind of the minority in the 21st Century. I was just challenging the idea that people who are religious are robots. Many religious folk have to constantly explain their beliefs/practices/traditions – and it isn’t just on SD. :o ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/137 "2011-04-14T12:49:20Z")
What country do live in where religious people are any kind of minority, or have to “contantly explain themselves?” In America, things are just the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/138 "2011-04-14T15:56:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What country do live in where religious people are any kind of minority, or have to “contantly explain themselves?” > > In America, things are just the opposite. Don’t lump all religious people in the same group. That’s rather ignorant, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/139 "2011-04-14T16:07:26Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > But if we’re talking about Presidents, we’re talking about people who have mostly been members of mainstream Christian denominations. Not super-observant, Orthodox Jews (a population group infamously insular), mainstream Protestants and Catholics in America by and large aren’t doing things on a regular basis that sets them apart from the majority. > > You do know they aren’t burning sheep on the altar down at the Presbyterian church? Of COURSE we don’t burn it. We use a nice rosemary and olive oil coating and keep the fire low. Gotta have our lamb for Easter, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872/140 "2011-04-14T17:01:52Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Of COURSE we don’t burn it. We use a nice rosemary and olive oil coating and keep the fire low. Gotta have our lamb for Easter, you know. Don’t forget the blood of aborted babies. :o [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/presidents-and-religion-smart-enough-to-lie-or-dumb-enough-to-believe/577872.md?page=8)