Prevent World War I

Again, this comparison ignores the reality of what the Germans did and the toll it exacted on the Allies. And the Germans would likely have done worse to the French had they won the war.

*"During the first weeks of World War I, German Chancellor Bethmann Hollweg composed a set of war aims which included significant territorial acquisitions and also cash reparations so heavy that “France is incapable of spending considerable sums on armaments for the next eighteen to twenty years.”

When the Soviets toppled the Tsarist government in Russia and sought a separate peace with Germany, territorial acquisitions and reparations in both cash and commodities were at the top of the German list of demands. Russia lost 90 percent of its coal, 50 percent of its industry and 30 percent of its population. The Central Powers took possession of Ukraine’s grain reserves: one million rail cars of grain destined for Austria alone. They also imposed cash reparations to the tune of nine billion gold marks. With the British naval blockade causing severe shortages of basic commodities in Germany, stripping its defeated adversaries of resources was essential to the war effort…
Constant shelling left the area of the (Western) front so scarred that craters and trench lines can still be seen in the French countryside to this day. Towns that were swept over by the front were obliterated. This was exacerbated by a German scorched-earth policy. When the German army pulled back to the Hindenburg Line after the battle of the Somme, engineer companies systematically pulled down buildings, cut trees, poisoned wells and set booby traps in the areas being evacuated. In the town of Bapaume, the city hall was one of the few structures left standing by withdrawing German troops, until a massive delayed action bomb in the basement went off several days later, killing a Australian troops and French civilians who had gathered for a ceremony in honor of the town’s liberation…

Based on their experience invading France in 1870-71, the German Army was terrified of guerrilla snipers. Officers followed a policy of severe reprisals, putting suspects before firing squads and burning down houses or whole villages in retaliation for alleged shots fired at soldiers…

Belgium and northern France were a heavily industrial area, and German occupation forces set about stripping the area of resources, leading to massive food and fuel shortages. Many factories were dismantled and shipped to Germany. Individual towns and cities were assigned indemnities to be collected from civilians’ savings and turned over to the occupation authorities. During July 1915 an indemnity of one million marks was levied on Sedan while the residents of Lille were ordered to pay three million. Basic household goods were extracted from the civilian population—linens, cooking pots, china, and furniture—and civilians were required to quarter soldiers in their homes.
German soldiers killed 248 residents of Leuven, expelled the remaining 10,000 citizens, and burned the town, including the university library containing 300,000 irreplaceable medieval manuscripts.

In addition to requisitions of material goods, German occupation authorities increasingly requisitioned the time and labor of the occupied population. A common punishment for minor infractions was being shipped to Germany to perform forced labor. Young men of military age were drafted into labor battalions and assigned work, including repairing trenches and burying the dead at the front. Sometimes this forced labor was combined with additional humiliations. When 20,000 women and girls were shipped out of Lille in April 1916, they were all forced to undergo the same gynecological examination by German army doctors usually inflicted on registered army prostitutes…

…when the German government agreed to armistice terms, Allied troops had yet to make any significant advances onto German soil. The Allies had won, but nearly all of the war’s destruction had fallen upon the victors."*

Hard to argue that the French committed atrocities in 1870 comparable to what the Germans did in WWI, or that the Germans shouldn’t have been expected to pay for the terrible damage they did.

I brought up one possible scenario awhile back. War might have come earlier, or much later, the OP asked though was how WWI, as it happened, could have been avoided.

But Germany wasnt to blame, any more that Russia or France was.

And yes, the war caused much more damage- which left Germany in no positions to pay, while France was able to pay it’s reparations early.

Cite?

I see the diehards are unconvinced by facts.

When you invade another country and cause grievous damage, much of it intentional and committed against innocent people, how are your victims equally to blame? And a nation that impoverishes itself through aggression can hardly plead poverty as an excuse for not paying for the results of that aggression.

It’s like murdering your parents, and then pleading for mercy on the grounds that you’re an orphan.

Seriously?

I put the link in the same post you’re responding to. Do you need me to drive over to your house and push the button on your mouse for you?

*Russia *mobilized first, based upon assurances from France.

No one nation can be blamed for WWI. You can blame Serbia for training and supporting assassins, AH for too strong demands, Russia for mobilizing first, Germany for supporting AH in it demands, France for supporting Russia’s aggression vs AH, Germany for attacking France…

This wasnt WWII, no war vs Evil. It was one evil imperialist warmongering power vs another evil imperialist warmongering power.

You linked to a " book on the subject", Do you have a cite with the actual “minutes to the government meetings where they discussed their plans to cause a general war.”

Linking to a entire book which may or may not contain those minutes is not that same.

One somewhat poignant note is that Wilhelm felt a personal loss in Franz Ferdinand’s death. The two men had been friends (and given that both men had difficult personalities, neither had a lot of friends). While the Austrian and German governments were busy using Franz Ferdinand’s death as a political tool, Wilhelm seems to be the only person who actually mourned the man.

Are you having a Donald Trump moment here?

While I said there are “plenty of books on the subject” I also knew that some people wouldn’t find that an acceptable cite (because books are so looonnng). So I intentionally found what I described as “a quick online view”. What I linked to is a newspaper article.

Now that is a Donald Trump moment. :slight_smile:

Yes- which didnt contain those "actual “minutes to the government meetings where they discussed their plans to cause a general war.

Let me get this straight. You’ve been posting all over this thread without a single cite to back it up. But you ask for cites from other people.

I posted and provided a cite that substantiates what I wrote. You not only refused to look at my cite but now you’re insisting my cite has to be the original documents? In German?

Here’s my response: I apologize to Donald Trump for my previous post in which I compared the two of you.

By the way, your post was twenty-one words long and contained three punctuation errors. You might want to work on that.

Germany declared war on Russia (and France), at least two weeks before the first Russian troops entered Germany (Austria-Hungary had also declared war on Russia well before this).

The cry of “They were all equally guilty” is ludicrous.

Perhaps you also think Britain and France were just as guilty as Nazi Germany for starting WWII? :smack:

*Suggestions for reading about the causes for and outbreak of WWI: the classic “The Guns Of August” by Barbara Tuchman and the recently published “Catastrophe 1914” by Max Hastings.

If he takes your suggestion and reads Mrs Tuchman’s book it won’t lead him far from the conclusion he has already drawn. She makes it abundantly clear all European nations leaders and peoples played a role in starting The Great War.

wiki:

Controversy[edit]
*Tuchman’s book of 1962[10] apparently was influenced by the then novel theories of German historian Fritz Fischer. In 1960, Fischer had proposed that Germany began the World War to pursue its foreign policy, according to his interpretation of contemporary documents, such as that the “Septemberprogramm” statement of Germany’s war aims drawn up in September 1914 was actual policy. In the decades since, Fischer’s charge of war origin has generated substantial controversy and divided historians. Many came to view Fischer’s example of the Septemberprogramm as only a discussion document never formally adopted.[11] Gerhard Ritter initially led the criticism of Fischer’s theory and of his general thesis that Germany in essence principally started World War I.[12]

Since then, those faulting Fischer have included other respected historians, such as Wolfgang J. Mommsen (Fischer, although helpful, ignored the European imperialist context and even the particulars and so was “seriously flawed” and “allowed himself to be carried away”),[13] and Niall Ferguson (Fischer “fundamentally flawed” and Fischer failed to account for the European-wide espousal of Social Darwinism and Imperialism).[14][15] Many writers continue the controversy of European history.
*

Yes, but the Germans most of all. However, it was a line of dominoes with many fingers eager to start the first one falling. European Imperialism is to blame, not any one nation. I did say the Kaiser was perhaps* one of the* leading promoters and causes. He was unstable.

No offense to Tuchman but The Guns of August was written in 1962. This was around the time when the reassessment of German responsibility was just getting off the ground.

This was around the time when the reassessment of German responsibility was just getting made up by a guy who didnt understand the difference between “discussion document” and actual “policy”.

You know, prior to WWII, the US had war games which included such things as use invading Canada, etc. I am sure similar theoretical 'what-ifs" are tossed around now. That doesn’t make them actual planning or policy.

Everyone calm down. Next personal comment earns a warning.