Agreed. I mean, what’s the point of saying “No, you have to stay over there until we say “Go”. Then you can surrender.”? This way, there’s that many less troops between the US/UK forces and Baghdad (or wherever they’re going).
I don’t know, but I guess they were orderded not to take any prisoners. Maybe the orders are that you can’t take prisonders of war unless you have a war. War hasn’t been declared yet.
It’s encouraging for our troops, but how very very sad for the Iraqi military.
samarm, I would think the U.S. and U.K. troops are not yet prepared to take “prisoners” and until they are, are prevented from doing so.
However, the phrase…“Trained by the French?” was superb!
Anybody know why they didn’t do just that? The article said they had no choice but to send them back, but I can’t help but wonder why not?
They definitely should learn the difference between ‘surrender’ and ‘defect’.
Right word for the right time and all that.
koeeoaddi: we’ve already had a couple of WAGs on that here. But I’ve yet to find a proper cite for the reasons.
I read that article, and highly disagree. My bet is, if it goes that far, and the citizens of Baghdad know Saddam is out, coalition forces will be welcomed like the Allied liberators of European cities were in WWII.
When it says that Saddam can mass a hundred thousand citizens to show solidarity, it’s because the nightly baghdad news says “Saddam says their WILL be shitloads of people out ragging the US tonight.”
You get the :rolleyes: yourself for thinking the majority of regular citizens in Baghdad actually support Saddam. Christ, this is a country where you get a bullet in the head for questioning the Great Leader.
The citizens would be insane for acting otherwise.
So, you’re saying that the recent election where he captured 100% of the vote was a fraud! :eek: :eek: :eek:
Well Tuckerfan, I did hear of a few hanging chads, but apparently they were buried rather quickly.
Don’t know quite how to break this to you, amigo, but that’s entirely plausible. There is no way to predict how people are going to react.
When the Allied liberators entered Germany they were met, in many cases, by the Volksturmm, a ragtag band of older men and boys pressed into uniform and haphazardly armed. On the other hand, when the Nazi’s entered the Ukraine, they were greeted with the kind of enthusiasm you seem to think is a lead pipe cinch. On the gripping hand, the Russian people fought Hitler like rabid wolverines…on behalf of Josef Stalin. Go figure.
There something about foreign invader in the homeland that sets off the psycho genes in us monkeys. Not always. But far, far too often.
I know what you meant Elucidator, but putting those two quotes together out of context invites confusion.
When I said “will be welcomed like the Allied liberators of European cities were in WWII.”, I meant after the citizens know Saddam is history.
When I said “be insane for acting otherwise”, I obviously meant they will do Saddam’s wish right now.
While you and I know what you are saying, Please don’t put quotes of mine together so far out of context.
Thank you.
“together so far out of context.”
Well, that sounded goofy, but you know what i mean.
Well, sure, Klaatu, as soon as they know for sure for sure! that Goddam Hussein is toasting next to J. Edgar Hoover, they will rush to express thier approval of the armed men in thier midst.
A similar thing happened in France. You had to wonder how the Germans ever managed to retain control of a country where 90% of the population were actively involved in the Resistance.
Well, since we’re in the Pit, FUCK YOU, moron. Grow a brain before you try and tell me what I think.
I merely engaged in a tit for tat thing in your previous post, and Gawd ferbid, disagreed.
How you got from respected poster (by me, in this thread anyway) to asshole in the next post is beyond me.
And as you said, this is the Pit, so fuck you too moron, at least I have a brain to grow, rather unlike the pile of shit between your ears that you are obviously having a problem transporting to your intestines, since it is coming out of your mouth on the way down.
I’m skeptical about the truth or the article. I don’t know how far apart the lines are, but I find it unlikely that a dozen random Iraqi soldiers “heard shooting” and decided to cross over, were able to sneak past their own fellow soldiers and past whatever sentries and monitoring devices the allies have in place, cross open desert, come upon a group of Brits who, rather than take them into custody and gather intelligence from them on the state of the Iraqi troops, tell them to turn around and walk back, past all the same guards etc. because the war hasn’t started yet. My BS detector is going off.
Someone in the fark thread referred to it as a “Parisian Pre-Emptive Strike.”
Great dig on the French, Hail Ants!
The whole problem with this potential war is that it’s being painted as an easy black-and-white scenario. It is anything BUT that.
If you think the Allied Forces of today will get the same welcome as they did in 1945 Western Europe, you may very well be wrong. Here are some of the reasons why the Iraqi people will NOT be pleased to see American or Brit troops:[ul][li]First and foremost, do not underestimate the power of indoctrination. It is entirely possible that the majority of the Iraqi population loves Saddam to pieces, even though he’s treated them like shit for a couple of decades now. Have we seen any evidence that the majority of Iraqi’s disagree with Saddam? We here in the west seem to think that’s just because they’re scared to disagree - what if they’re convinced their leader is right? Millions wept when Joseph Stalin died. To this day, people honour him as a hero, despite the evidence that he killed millions and millions of his own people.[]Like it or not, Americans are not well liked in the Gulf region. With the exception of Kuwait, the US has pissed off just about any country in the region at one time or another. This will no doubt not have escaped the Iraqi propaganda machine. Americans will probably be seen as the peons of the Great Satan himself, rather than heroic liberators (and let’s face it, using the term “regime change” automatically disqualifies a nation from calling themselves “liberators”).[]If American precision bombing is as accurate as it was in Gulf War v1.0, there WILL be massive collateral damage, with thousands of civilian deaths as a result. Have fun marching into Baghdad, where the streets are lined with the parents and children of your “collateral damage”.Loyal Iraqi troops may cause a hell of a surprise when they descent from the mountains and head for the cities. Iraq is a big and mountainous land. It is largely unknown to the American military (at least from a ground perspective), and can not easily be declared “safe” in any significant manner.[/ul]Does all of this make the Iraqi people a bunch of bloodthirsty savages? No. Partially, they’re underinformed after having been subjected to a propaganda regime for 25 years. And partially, they’d be somewhat right in being pissed off for having their city blown to pieces for the second time in 15 years. [/li]
Maybe the Americans will be seen as “liberators” 50 years down the line, I don’t know. But don’t expect a flower parade in Baghdad in a couple of weeks. It’s unrealistic, and dangerous, to assume this is a natural course of things. If the Iraqis welcome the American troops as their long-lost brothers, I’ll gladly eat crow, and admit I misjudged the situation. But it’s better to be safe than sorry in this regard: who need another Mogadishu? (Interesting related read.)
rowrbazzle, I hope you were being sarcastic.
Klaatu, gritting my teeth all the way I’ll offer an apology to you. I have no excuse for becoming impatient at the nth morphing of one of my opinions into a strawman argument by one of you pro-warriors. Although it’s maddening to have that done, it’s also stupid of me to give in to the anger. It’s counterproductive.
For reasons why Iraqi’s might not rush to embrace a US invasion of their country, see Coldfire’s excellent post above. I think he makes it obvious why anti-invasion-of-their-country does not equal a pro-Saddam position by Iraqi’s.