# Previous 'Non-European' Pope. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 20, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470 "2013-03-20T17:35:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/1 "2013-03-20T17:35:17Z")
As you all know, the recently elected Pope Francis I is non-european. But according to most news stories of him, he is not the first. Most broadcasts say we haven’t had a non-european pope in “over a thousand years”. What am I missing here? “Over a thousand years agon”, weren’t _ **all** _ popes european? I mean, there was no other choice, was there? If there was somehow another non-european pope, what was his name and where did he come from? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/2 "2013-03-20T17:38:09Z")
North Africa, Middle East… until Mohammed came along and made these significantly non-Christian, they were as much a part of the church as anywhere else in the former Roman Empire. Even after the schsim with the eastern orthodox church, there were significant Roman Catholic church members there. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/3 "2013-03-20T17:42:23Z")
The last non-European pope was [Gregory III](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gregory_III)(731-741), who was born in Syria. There were a number of other popes from the Middle East and North Africa, including of course St. Peter. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/4 "2013-03-20T17:44:49Z")
These popes were born in North Africa which was a part of the Roman empire (one or more popes may have been born in Asia Minor, but I’m not sure: > **[List of popes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes)** > > This chronological list of popes corresponds to that given in the Annuario Pontificio under the heading "I Sommi Pontefici Romani" (The Roman Supreme Pontiffs), excluding those that are explicitly indicated as antipopes. Published every year by the Roman Curia, the Annuario Pontificio no longer identifies popes by regnal number, stating that it is impossible to decide which pope represented the legitimate succession at various times. The 2001 edition of the Annuario Pontificio introduced "almo... ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/5 "2013-03-20T17:53:03Z")
I count a total of 10 popes born in Asia (mostly Syria, a few in the Holy Land) or Africa, although for some popes no place of birth is indicated. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/6 "2013-03-20T17:53:28Z")
> **[Francis is first non-European pope in nearly 1,300 years | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/14/world/europe/pope-non-european/)** > > Pope Francis is a first in many ways. He’s the first Latin American pontiff; the first Jesuit; the first Francis – and the first non-European in 1,272 years. Popes have been born in Syria, Jerusalem, and Libya. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/7 "2013-03-20T17:56:02Z")
It is also noteworthy that many [Church Fathers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_of_the_Church), i. e. the most influential early Christian theologians, were born outside of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/8 "2013-03-20T19:00:11Z")
St Peter was born near what’s now the border between Israel and Syria. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/9 "2013-03-20T19:04:51Z")
To the OP.You do know that the Pope is the successor to St Peter…who most most certainly not European. [QUOTE=md2000] North Africa, Middle East… until Mohammed came along and made these significantly non-Christian, they were as much a part of the church as anywhere else in the former Roman Empire. Even after the schsim with the eastern orthodox church, there were significant Roman Catholic church members there. [/QUOTE] Even after the Arab conquests these areas remained majority Christian for centuries and the Levant would at times return (or parts of it would) to Byzantine and or Christian rule. It needs to be remembered that for many centuries the Pope of Rome was not the most influential figure in Christendom, there were other co equal “Popes” in Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Carthage. These were under the ultimate authority of the Emperor. As the Romans/Byzantines lost these areas the Churches there became independent to a large extent. When the Romans lost Rome (circa 751) the Pope in Rome was no longer appointed/ confirmed by the Emperor and this meant not only greater independence for the Roman Church but that Pope of Rome was no longer part of a large multi national Empire and co sequently the number of people who could become Pope reduced. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/10 "2013-03-21T05:02:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > To the OP.You do know that the Pope is the successor to St Peter…who most most certainly not European. Actually, as an RC, I was brought with Catholic dogma. And according to RC history?/legend? St. Peter went to Rome shortly before he died. That is why all?/most? subsequent popes (according to this theory) were Italian. (Hey, if you dispute this claim, your beef it with the Catholic church, not me;).) ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/11 "2013-03-21T05:12:19Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > North Africa, Middle East… until Mohammed came along and made these significantly non-Christian, they were as much a part of the church as anywhere else in the former Roman Empire. Even after the schsim with the eastern orthodox church, there were significant Roman Catholic church members there. The important thing to understand is that ethnic and racial divisions weren’t the same back then and that the difference between “European” versus “Asian” (from Asia Minor) wasn’t much more meaningful than being from Pennsylvania vs. New York today. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/12 "2013-03-21T06:13:37Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Actually, as an RC, I was brought with Catholic dogma. And according to RC history?/legend? St. Peter went to Rome shortly before he died. That is why all?/most? subsequent popes (according to this theory) were Italian. (Hey, if you dispute this claim, your beef it with the Catholic church, not me;).) But not everyone living in Rome were Roman. The early church in Rome was made up mostly of the Greek-speaking foreign class. And so, the early ‘popes’ weren’t Roman (nor Italian since that’s a national and cultural idea that was hundreds of years away). Peter is indeed buried in Rome. The archeological evidence is quite convincing that St. Peter’s Basilica is built on Peter’s grave. And the excavation under the Basilica has recovered his grave, or, at the very least, the grave of what 2nd century Christians believed was his grave. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/13 "2013-03-21T12:09:35Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Actually, as an RC, I was brought with Catholic dogma. And according to RC history?/legend? St. Peter went to Rome shortly before he died. That is why all?/most? subsequent popes (according to this theory) were Italian. (Hey, if you dispute this claim, your beef it with the Catholic church, not me;).) I dispute the claim but my beef is not with the Catholic Church, it’s with your teachers who simplified the difficulty of travel and long-distance communication up until very recent times to a point that makes my head hurt, plus what **moriah** said. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/14 "2013-03-21T13:27:25Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > That is why all?/most? subsequent popes (according to this theory) were Italian. (Hey, if you dispute this claim, your beef it with the Catholic church, not me;).) Why continue with the “all/most” line? You’ve been giving a link to the entire list of popes in history, which includes their location of birth. It’s trivial easy to go through and see who all the popes were and where they came from. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/15 "2013-03-21T16:12:26Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I dispute the claim but my beef is not with the Catholic Church, it’s with your teachers who simplified the difficulty of travel and long-distance communication up until very recent times to a point that makes my head hurt, plus what **moriah** said. First off, while long-range travel was expensive and a little dangerous in ancient times, it happened constantly. There was a massive flow of ships between Rome and Alexandria alone, and we extremely storng evidence that St. Paul travelled extensively, and himself went on a rather final journey to Rome. While it’s not known exactly how far afield St. Peter ventured (as he didn’t write letters as often, or least not ones that survived), it’s extremely plausible that he could and would go to Rome. He certainly wouldn’t have been unique among the Apostles in leaving Judea and ministering first to expatriot Jews around the Med, and then to slave or Greek communities. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/16 "2013-03-21T16:24:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > It needs to be remembered that for many centuries the Pope of Rome was not the most influential figure in Christendom, there were other co equal “Popes” in Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Carthage. Carthage? Am I missing something, or might you mean Alexandria? FWIW, I generally reckon the entire Mediterranean Basin–North, South, and East–as “Europe” prior to the eighth century or so, and I think a lot of folks who’ve studied late antiquity would agree. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/17 "2013-03-21T17:02:35Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Carthage? Am I missing something, or might you mean Alexandria? > > FWIW, I generally reckon the entire Mediterranean Basin–North, South, and East–as “Europe” prior to the eighth century or so, and I think a lot of folks who’ve studied late antiquity would agree. YMMV. Carthage was the richest city in the empire at one point. As it is, I greatly disagree with your geographical assessment. It was a Greco-Roman, it was most certainly NOT Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/18 "2013-03-21T17:23:37Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > FWIW, I generally reckon the entire Mediterranean Basin–North, South, and East–as “Europe” prior to the eighth century or so, and I think a lot of folks who’ve studied late antiquity would agree. YMMV. The region may have been part of the same cultural area, but there is no particular reason to refer to that area as “Europe.” The distinction between Europe, Asia, and Africa as parts of that cultural area already existed at the time (although in a different sense than we mean it today.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/19 "2013-03-21T17:34:15Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Actually, as an RC, I was brought with Catholic dogma. And according to RC history?/legend? St. Peter went to Rome shortly before he died. That is why all?/most? subsequent popes (according to this theory) were Italian. This is incorrect. While most popes have been from Italy, there were many from other parts of Europe until the 1300s, when the Papacy was temporarily removed from Rome to Avignon in France, eventually producing the Western Schism. In order to avoid such nationalistic rivalry over the Papacy in the future, it became the convention that the pope would always come from Italy. The last non-Italian pope before John Paul II was Adrian VI in 1522-23. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470/20 "2013-03-21T18:52:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Carthage was the richest city in the empire at one point. As it is, I greatly disagree with your geographical assessment. It was a Greco-Roman, it was most certainly NOT Europe. Carthage never hosted an episcopacy that was the equal of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, and Jerusalem. That fifth position in the [pentarchy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentarchy) was held by Alexandria. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/previous-non-european-pope/653470.md?page=2)