# Price for gun rights is paid in PA. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005 "2009-04-04T22:55:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/341 "2009-04-07T13:34:30Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Okay, gun grabbers, one more time: Why do you believe the government can control illegal firearms when it can’t control illegal drugs or illegal immigration? If I decide I want a handgun, and I don’t give a damn about your laws, how do you intend to stop me? Yet another “constitutional scholar” who claims a legal right to own a firearm, but will not hesitate to ignore the law if it goes against him. Back in post #201, I asked a question about where all these illegal firearms come from and didn’t receive any responses, so again I ask: Are the majority of illegally possessed firearms manufactured illegally, or stolen? If underground manufacturing is the problem, perhaps targetting those who create the weapons can stem the tide. If on the other hand they are being stolen, who exactly are they being stolen from-all those friends and neighbors who are armed to the teeth to protect “parasites” like me? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/342 "2009-04-07T13:57:57Z")
So, you expect government, who can’t keep track of their own guns, to effectually enforce any kind of a gun ban? [BATFE can’t find 76 guns.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/18/atf-missing-laptops-76-guns/) [FBI loses 449 firearms](http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/18/us/fbi-check-finds-laptops-and-weapons-are-missing.html). [Pentagon can’t find ass with both hands and a flashlight; has trouble locating hundreds of thousands of guns, too](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/05/AR2007080501299.html). [Too](http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article2315.html) [many](http://illinipundit.com/2008/02/03/lost-police-firearm) [cops](http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jan/13/local/me-shotguns13) [can’t](http://www.nypost.com/seven/07292008/news/regionalnews/rookie_cop_slammed_for_cycle_of_violence_122079.htm) [keep](http://forums.fingerlakes1.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=252529&page=167) [track](http://www.clickorlando.com/news/2404954/detail.html) [of](http://www.masscops.com/forums/police-news-articles/8995-cop-drives-off-gun-his-roof.html)[their](http://atlantapolicesuck.blogspot.com/2007/12/atlanta-cop-loses-gun.html) [guns](http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P3-1294834221.html)[to list them all.](http://kohd.com/page/95086) It is to laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/343 "2009-04-07T14:00:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yet another “constitutional scholar” who claims a legal right to own a firearm, but will not hesitate to ignore the law if it goes against him. > Back in post #201, I asked a question about where all these illegal firearms come from and didn’t receive any responses, so again I ask: > > Are the majority of illegally possessed firearms manufactured illegally, or stolen? > If underground manufacturing is the problem, perhaps targetting those who create the weapons can stem the tide. If on the other hand they are being stolen, who exactly are they being stolen from-all those friends and neighbors who are armed to the teeth to protect “parasites” like me? Ah, I love the smell of a false dichotomy in the morning. Another possibility is that the guns are manufactured in another country and are shipped illegally to the US. Also, you seem to ignore the fact that a lot of guns exist and won’t just waste away if they are banned. So, banning guns, confiscating them from registered owners, stopping illegal manufacturing, and stopping illegal importing may well still leave lots and lots of guns in the hands of the bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/344 "2009-04-07T14:00:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yet another “constitutional scholar” who claims a legal right to own a firearm, but will not hesitate to ignore the law if it goes against him. > Back in post #201, I asked a question about where all these illegal firearms come from and didn’t receive any responses, so again I ask: > > Are the majority of illegally possessed firearms manufactured illegally, or stolen? > If underground manufacturing is the problem, perhaps targetting those who create the weapons can stem the tide. If on the other hand they are being stolen, who exactly are they being stolen from-all those friends and neighbors who are armed to the teeth to protect “parasites” like me? In my area (Philadelphia) I’ve read that there is an enormous market for legally purchased guns in a different state, which are then transported and sold illegally in the more restrictive state for a huge profit (then reported as stolen, etc.). Don’t have a cite handy. But in this instance, it is indeed an illegal “underground” that feeds the pipeline. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/345 "2009-04-07T14:16:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yet another “constitutional scholar” who claims a legal right to own a firearm, but will not hesitate to ignore the law if it goes against him. Where did I mention the Constitution? > [@](#): > > Back in post #201, I asked a question about where all these illegal firearms come from and didn’t receive any responses, so again I ask: > > Are the majority of illegally possessed firearms manufactured illegally, or stolen? > If underground manufacturing is the problem, perhaps targetting those who create the weapons can stem the tide. If on the other hand they are being stolen, who exactly are they being stolen from-all those friends and neighbors who are armed to the teeth to protect “parasites” like me? They’ll be smuggled through Mexico and Canada, they’ll be manufactured for export in Europe and Asia (as many are today), they’ll be stolen from National Guard armories as they were back in the 60s & 70s, they’ll come from all over the place. It’s not hard to see where they’d come from. Create a lucrative market for illegal firearms and someone will be quite happy to make a pile of cash from it. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/346 "2009-04-07T14:19:14Z")
Sounds to me like there are already too many guns in this country if we can’t even keep track of them. So, of course, the solution must be … more guns. Makes perfect sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/347 "2009-04-07T14:30:45Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Sounds to me like there are already too many guns in this country if we can’t even keep track of them. > > So, of course, the solution must be … more guns. Makes perfect sense to me. So in your mind it doesn’t matter who has guns. More guns are bad and less guns are good. I gape in awe at your mastery of the subtle nuances of the issues. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/348 "2009-04-07T14:58:56Z")
You and your roll-eye smiley can both blow me. The counter argument, that you seem to subscribe to, is that the fact that there are so many guns in this country is the reason we need so many guns in this country. Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy. The fact that the we can’t even keep track of the guns we have now (which end up killing people) is a result of the \*want \*of all these guns. This, I think is the culmination of the OP’s point. The NRA and Second Amendment Above All Else types, do shoulder some of the responsibility for all this “need” for guns. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/349 "2009-04-07T15:03:20Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > What a load of lethally retarded and criminally self-indulgent–and just plain dishonest–bullshit this thread is extruding out my monitor. > > Gun nuts, and your ridiculous insistence on flapping the Constitution in the faces of the sane in order to obscure the fact that you have absolutely zero rational arguments on this subject, please join me in the following thought experiment. > > I have a time machine. I set the dial for “Founding Fathers” and, beads and blankets in hand, persuade the Signers to climb on into my shiny ship and return to the present with me. On the way back, I ask them to contemplate the implications of the following amendment–James Madison to act as chair, of course: > > When we arrived, I would take them on a tour of a couple inner-city neighborhoods; I’d let them witness a couple shoot-outs between cops and criminals; I’d take them to a few funerals of accidental shooting victims. I’d set the dial for Columbine and for Virginia Tech. I’d show them some examples of the ever-escalating arms race between the police and gangs. I’d give them as much time as they wanted to learn how the world has changed since the day they ratified that sentence–a day in which the “New World” they were living in was still largely wilderness with multiple threats–both known and unknown–and very little (to no) organized protection from those threats. > > When they had satisfied themselves that they had sufficiently “caught up” with the times, I would ask them to debate whether, given the chance, they’d make any edits in that sentence. > > Now, are all of you NRAers seriously going to try to look me in the eye and tell me that you believe their response would be, “Nope, leave it as is. This is pretty much how we pictured it. Yay NRA!” > > Seriously? You think if you could as the Signers “Is this really what you intended as the result of that one sentence?” they’d say Yes? > > Seriously? > > Why do you people keep trotting out that dishonest bullshit about the wording of the 2nd Amendment when no sane person could possibly believe that Madison et al. meant it the way the NRA interprets it? Before you send them back, let me have them for a little while. I’ll show them the pedophiles at NAMBLA and the racist fucks at Stormfront and ask them if they would like to reconsider that little freedom of speech thing they so recklessly threw in there. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/350 "2009-04-07T15:04:56Z")
> [@SuntanTigerTamer](#): > > 1. I choose to support gun control, knowing that they weaken or erode my own personal freedoms, under the assumption (or hope) that they (could) help keep guns out of the hands of potential criminals. I haven’t had any coffee yet, so you all will have to forgive me. I just can’t remember that old saying about people who are willing to trade freedom for security. How does that go again? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/351 "2009-04-07T15:09:58Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Before you send them back, let me have them for a little while. I’ll show them the pedophiles at NAMBLA and the racist fucks at Stormfront and ask them if they would like to reconsider that little freedom of speech thing they so recklessly threw in there. They probably would have been okay with the Stormfront guys, when you think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/352 "2009-04-07T15:19:14Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The fact that countries that control guns have a lot less gun deaths and crime seems to make that another gun lovers lie. Still waiting on those cites, **gonzomax.** ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/353 "2009-04-07T15:28:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yet another “constitutional scholar” who claims a legal right to own a firearm, but will not hesitate to ignore the law if it goes against him. I just wanted to add that you’re correct: if I decide I don’t want to cope with whatever new laws come down the hatch, I most certainly won’t. Just the same as ignoring a variety of moronic laws that are already on the books. Yet I’m not a sociopathic killer; I just can’t figure it out. > [@](#): > > Are the majority of illegally possessed firearms manufactured illegally, or stolen? > If underground manufacturing is the problem, perhaps targetting those who create the weapons can stem the tide. If on the other hand they are being stolen, who exactly are they being stolen from-all those friends and neighbors who are armed to the teeth to protect “parasites” like me? **buttonjockey** is better equipped to answer this, but it is my understanding that most illegally possessed firearms are obtained through straw sales and then theft. Economy (read: gangster-gun) manufacturers like Bryco Arms, Lorcin and Raven have also been rumored to “lose” a great deal of stock from time to time. Surprise, surprise, even economy guns are expensive to gangbangers. An individual I know that wasn’t ineligible to own a gun, yet lived in a ghetto neighborhood (by Spokane standards) purchased [one of these pieces of garbage](http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=126474148) for $650! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/354 "2009-04-07T15:28:44Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I just can’t remember that old saying about people who are willing to trade freedom for security. How does that go again? Such fools end up pounding the tar out of places that got nothing to do with either, and then whine when people call em on it? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/355 "2009-04-07T15:32:42Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I see you have just as much trouble following board rules as you do society’s rules, shitbag. No surprise there. Look, you’re already comparable to the vagina of a gang-banged elephant, do you really want to increase your status to the size of a whale’s cock receptacle? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/356 "2009-04-07T15:36:48Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > You and your roll-eye smiley can both blow me. > > The counter argument, that you seem to subscribe to, is that the fact that there are so many guns in this country is the reason we need so many guns in this country. Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy. > > The fact that the we can’t even keep track of the guns we have now (which end up killing people) is a result of the \*want \*of all these guns. This, I think is the culmination of the OP’s point. The NRA and Second Amendment Above All Else types, do shoulder some of the responsibility for all this “need” for guns. Maybe people just want to own the things they enjoy and don’t want to see them banned? Why do you think this “assault weapon” and ammunition frenzy is going on in the firearms business world right now? My local gundealers won’t even order anything from Rock River Arms (makers of DEA AR15s) because some people have been waiting over a year to get their products! Demand right now is very, very high and it isn’t because of global terrorism, gangbanging or Mexico: it’s because people want to own these things before future legislature takes the ability to do so legally away. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/357 "2009-04-07T15:53:56Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Look, you’re already comparable to the vagina of a gang-banged elephant, do you really want to increase your status to the size of a whale’s cock receptacle? I don’t see why my disapproval of you upsets you so, shitbag. You were the one who brought your criminal past to the table, not me. What do you expect me to think of you after you spout off about being a thief, assaulting people in a bar, and spending time in prison? All the while showing no evidence of contrition and blaming the victims, I might add. Do you think I should be pumping my fist in the air and shouting “You da man, ivan! You da man!” You’re a fucking idiot as well as a shitbag. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/358 "2009-04-07T15:58:31Z")
While I ordinarily hate the call-and-response approach, I _am_ at work and need an expedient of some sort… > [@Todderbob](#): > > Without agreeing with you, the only case you’ve made is that gun ownership _(in the wrong hands)_ has disadvantages – I dispute the weight of disadvantage to advantage, in ratio, however I don’t think I’ll convince you – you still haven’t proven that banning guns would fix this problem. No, not “in the wrong hands.” If you support private possession of guns, you have to admit that sometimes the wrong people are going to get them and that this will happen more often when guns are permitted than when they are not. This is not to say that were guns banned, they would magically vanish\*, but if they were, they would be considerably less prevalent. Similarly, no one pretends narcotics, say, are not trafficked in this country, but the amount of the traffic is a good deal less than it would be if they were legalized. - The argument that a gun ban would not eliminate guns pretends that this is an all-or-nothing question and allows the perfect to be the enemy of the good. Passing laws against theft hasn’t eliminated stealing either, so repeal it? This really is a dopey argument and gun advocates who cherish their credibility should strive to avoid it. > [@](#): > > As to the argument ‘countries with tighter gun laws have less gun violence,’ I’d make the case that you’re intentionally ignoring Switzerland, What has Switzerland got to do with any of this? I am not arguing that private possession of guns and the non-existence of socially costly gun crimes cannot logically coexist. Evidently this obtains in Switzerland. It does not so obtain in the United States. I am not have an airy-fairy discussion about possible worlds. I am talking about what policy is good for the United States given our seeming propensity for multiple-fatality shootouts. > [@](#): > > and the fact that the countries with lower gun crime also have lower knife, fist, and ballbat crime than the United States. > > I seriously doubt these countries have a lower ownership of hands, fists and knives than the United States (although they probably do own less baseball bats… that’s an oddly American sport, wonder why it’s not caught on elsewhere?). I think here you may be grasping my point above. The only other thing I’d point out is this: The question has never been “Can Object X be abused?” It is rather “Do the benefits of Object X outweigh its harms, including the harms of predictable abuse?” Hands, you will be surprised to learn, come in quite, well, handy. Since Page 1 of this thread, all I’ve asked for is an explanation of how the benefits of gun possession (and I have been broadminded in what I have included as it benefits) outweigh its harms (the demonstrated excess mortality of gun crimes). Here we are on Page 8 and only one person has risen to the occasion. His argument was that guns allow either the possibility of armed revolution or at least the warm fuzzies that imagining yourself capable of resisting the government in armed insurrection engender, and that these political or psychological benefits outweigh the costs of gun crime. I find this argument a little unavailing. > [@](#): > > If the problem is removed from that of Gun themselves, then I’d say we should fix the issues **causing** the violence, rather than attempting to ban the items used in the violence. The evidence simply does not show that 1) banning firearms lowers firearm violence, 2) banning firearms lowers _ **overall** _ violence (2 being what it would have to achieve for it to be even considerable legislation). Your points (1) and (2), if capable of proof, would go a long way toward making a redoubtable case for at least some private possession of firearms. I behoove you and your fellow-travelers to try to make the case. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/359 "2009-04-07T16:00:31Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Before you send them back, let me have them for a little while. I’ll show them the pedophiles at NAMBLA and the racist fucks at Stormfront and ask them if they would like to reconsider that little freedom of speech thing they so recklessly threw in there. I didn’t quite get what you were saying. You don’t like freedom of speech? Or you do like NAMBLA? Which one is it? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/360 "2009-04-07T16:00:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Similarly, no one pretends narcotics, say, are not trafficked in this country, but the amount of the traffic is a good deal less than it would be if they were legalized. Your basis for claiming this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005.md?page=19)