# Price for gun rights is paid in PA. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005 "2009-04-04T22:55:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/401 "2009-04-08T02:36:23Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Just to be a mensch, try your hand at one (or both!) of these questions: > > 1. If cocaine were legalized, I would expect cocaine consumption to: > > (a) Increase > (b) Decrease > (c) Remain unchanged > > 1. Complete the following the sentence: > > “\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ is an example of a good whose consumption increased following its criminalization.” I saw a program on drug legalization which was being pushed by ex drug cops. They were pro legalization. They said if you dropped a chunk of cocaine on a street corner 95 % would just walk on by. The others, who would grab it ,get it anyway. They believed it would not increase users. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/402 "2009-04-08T03:35:47Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > That was dumb and an incorrect interpretation. But then attacking critics on a personal level is what you guys do . Put up or admit you lied. It doesn’t have to be any more personal than that. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/403 "2009-04-08T03:38:13Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > … It’s not illegal if I as somone who claims to be a collector goes to a gun show to sell my collection to random people with nothing more than a handshake and hand written receipt, if that. If I do that as a side business to make a little extra cash, and I sell 10 guns a week for 52 weeks, everything I’ve done is on the up and up and the guns I’ve sold, all 520 of them are in the wind, with no chance of finding the seller OR buyer, the only person I’ll be able to find is the victim… Where did you get them before they were stolen? There is your tracking device right there. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/404 "2009-04-08T06:23:39Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > See, even if 519 [out of 520] guns go to reputable, decent people, one ends up in the hands of the nutbar from PA or the guy from NY or the mutt from CA or the next spree killer. Out of those, we may have only been able to prevent 1 of them, but the lives of the officers in Oakland are damn well worth a little paperwork. Um, I bet the weapon(s) that took the lives of those pigs were purchased legally and through an FFL. Neverless, that paperwork doesn’t seem to help regardless. I like your posts pretty well enough considering your occupation, however, I don’t think that even **handgun registration** has worked so well in Washington state, considering my previous experience. The police and ATF spent about 9 hours dealing with me and my apartment due to mandatory handgun registration (when purchasing from FFLs, not private citizens) plus whatever time they spent prior on this individual and his possessions, all of which had absolutely nothing to do with the crime that said LEOs were investigating. That time could have definitely been spent better elsewhere, especially during a murder investigation. Don’t those tend to “go cold” after 48 hours? ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/405 "2009-04-08T08:50:20Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > That’s sort of the point, isn’t it? This incident, the recent one in Alabama, or at Northern Illinois University, or Virginia Tech, or the Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania, and so on. All of these seem to have been facilitated by–_indeed, would not have occurred but for_–the easy access to firearms in this country. > > I put it to you that the following represents the uses of the private possession of guns (from most common use to least common use): > > 1. Feeling better about the size of your dick > 2. Hunting defenseless animals, _maybe_ followed by eating them > 3. Batshit killing sprees > > Reason 1 doesn’t bother me (maybe we could have a national guns-for-Enzyte swap?) As to Reason 2, I myself like animals, I don’t think I would enjoy killing them, but I eat hamburgers and wear leather shoes, so I get that someone has to do it. Reason 3 is right out, no? > > Now, having to suffer senseless killings because someone wants to feel like a big swinging dick seems to me a bit beyond the pale. You might counter that you obviously don’t endorse a system where guns end up in the hands of murderous sociopaths; but, in for a penny, in for a pound, my hoplophilic friends. Your rationale for permitting private gun possession must explain why we should tolerate the very demonstrable excess mortality that such a regime entails. This is not impossible: when I buy grapes in the middle of an Illinois winter, I am tacitly endorsing a transportation system of big trucks and interstates and so on that result in a few more deaths than would occur without such a system. I have not seen such an argument made for guns. Of course, to apply your logic further, if I tolerate such outrageous, insulting, offensive statements, I am tacitly endorsing a system that allows them. I guess the solution is to repeal the First Amendment as well, no? Some facts for the witless: 1 - Women own guns too. 2 - Are hunters supposed to kill animals with their bare hands? Should we all only eat burgers if we can take down the cow mano-a-mano? 3 - “Batshit killing sprees” account for about .0001%\* of all murders in this country, but about 75% of the press coverage homicide receives. Think about it. 4 - Mass shootings have occurred in every major Western industrialized country. They have occurred in Great Britain, they have occurred in germany. In both places, guns are almost impossible to obtain. And here is Use #5: [The United States Olympic Shooting Team](http://www.usashooting.org/olympics.php). 'Cause, ya know, it’s an _Olympic sport._ [SIZE=“1”]\* - Not an official statistic.[/SIZE] ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/406 "2009-04-08T12:05:52Z")
> [@Lizard](#): > > 3 - “Batshit killing sprees” account for about .0001%\* of all murders in this country, but about 75% of the press coverage homicide receives. Think about it. Actually, in 2005, 4.4% of homicides involved 2 or more victims, and .05% involved five or more victims. Multiple victim homicides were more likely to involve a gun than single victim homicides. Multiple victim homicides have also been on the increase over the past two decades. > **[Home](https://bjs.ojp.gov)** > > The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) is the United States' primary source for criminal justice statistics that cover a wide range of topics. So it looks like you were off by a factor of 500. And **Mr. Krebbs** - those “pigs”? Is this an ironic use of the word, or do you mean to disparage the police officers who were killed over the weekend here in Pittsburgh? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/407 "2009-04-08T12:40:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Really?](http://ideas.repec.org/p/nbr/nberwo/3675.html) [Yes, really.](http://www.druglibrary.org/Prohibitionresults.htm) > [@](#): > > By the greatest majority of indicators, the biggest drops in alcohol consumption and alcohol problems actually came before national prohibition went into effect. Those drops continued for about the first two years of Prohibition and then alcohol consumption began to rise. By 1926, most of the problems were worse than they had been before Prohibition went into effect and there were a number of new problems – such as a drinking epidemic among children – that had not been there before. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/408 "2009-04-08T13:46:49Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > [Yes, really.](http://www.druglibrary.org/Prohibitionresults.htm) The second line from your site: > [@](#): > > In truth, nobody really knows exactly how much alcohol consumption increased or decreased during Prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/409 "2009-04-08T13:59:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yet another “constitutional scholar” who claims a legal right to own a firearm, but will not hesitate to ignore the law if it goes against him. > Back in post #201, I asked a question about where all these illegal firearms come from and didn’t receive any responses, so again I ask: > > Are the majority of illegally possessed firearms manufactured illegally, or stolen? > If underground manufacturing is the problem, perhaps targetting those who create the weapons can stem the tide. If on the other hand they are being stolen, who exactly are they being stolen from-all those friends and neighbors who are armed to the teeth to protect “parasites” like me? This depends entirely on the class of firearm, and this is entirely uncited off the top of my head. ALL fully automatic weapons used in crime are smuggled in or manufactured illegally. This is by definition–the rare legal fully automatic weapons are all known and licensed, and none have been used in a crime since 1938 (IIRC on the date) For handguns, the situation is reversed–many are either stolen or reported missing/stolen to mask their provenance. For long weapons of the normal variety, if I recall correctly, the infrequent illegal possession of same is generally by way of theft, again. Mostly they are being stolen within the same communities the crime is taking place in, from other semi-criminal types. The biggest problem with your line of reasoning, though, is the fact that the existence of the smuggling channel that obviously does get fully automatic illegal arms in-country implies the existence of a channel that obviously CAN get more handguns into the country if and when the local supply dries up. Couple that with the pretty much inevitable fact that criminals can and will trade illegal guns around (to mess with the police’s ability to catch repeated offenders) and the equally inevitable fact that no illegal guns will be confiscated easily compared to the ease of confiscating legally owned guns, and I think you’ll see a drop but not a cessation of illegal guns. In addition, I don’t think it is currently possible with data available to predict the impact on crime rates from a small drop and descending rate of illegally possessed firearms vs. a total loss of all legally possessed ones. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/410 "2009-04-08T15:07:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The second line from your site: You’re taking that very much out of context. it also provides a chart which shows that alcohol related arrests increased from 1920 to 1925. I take that as strong evidence that alcohol consumption increased. I note that an epidemic of alcohol abuse among children is a pretty good indication the whole thing backfired very badly. He cites plenty of other facts which support my position as well. Now, if you want to continue arguing about this, please start another thread. \*Arrests for drunkenness in some of the leading cities of the United States, 1920 to 1925: \* Boston 21,800 30,987 37,543 38,988 39,528 37,944 Providence 2,567 3,778 4,830 5,127 4,819 4,197 New York 5,936 6,237 8,578 10,643 13,988 12,917 Buffalo 7,421 8,347 8,868 12,181 11,135 16,174 Newark 1,310 1,252 1,198 2,541 3,477 2,615 Philadelphia 14,313 21.850 26,299 45,226 55,766 58,617 Pittsburgh 9,577 10,371 16,554 24,651 25,401 28,568 Wilmington, Del. 295 498 577 707 1,003 1,011 Baltimore 1,785 3,258 4,955 6,235 6,029 5,887 Washington 5,415 6,375 8,368 8,128 10,854 11,168 Richmond 1,563 1,953 2,752 2,959 2,826 2,596 Wilmington, N.C. 145 191 179 223 303 220 Charleston, S.C. 508 512 564 582 732 775 Jacksonville 811 995 1,543 2,348 2,251 2,900 Atlanta 4,199 4,491 6,553 7,003 7,972 7,557 Birmingham 927 1,117 2,000 3,652 3,972 4,962 Vicksburg 42 63 106 137 105 321 New Orleans 2,399 7,079 12,511 10,173 12,788 14,171 Galveston 241 694 905 1,108 1,391 1,259 Little Rock 511 853 819 644 771 695 St. Louis 1,861 993 1,930 2,376 2,551 5,092 Louisville 1,016 2,495 2,018 3,812 4,748 5,229 ## Knoxville * * * ## 2,753 4,456 3,862 Cleveland 2,991 5,156 16,817 18,814 19,271 23,393 Cincinnati 395 603 712 1,118 1,895 2.279 Chicago 32,362 49,762 64,853 75,900 86 072 92,888 Detroit 6,599 7,220 10,098 11,947 13,717 15,124 Minneapolis 2,363 5,243 7,268 7,289 7,676 7,435 ## Milwaukee 516 754 2,514 3,789 6,056 Omaha 2,640 3,821 5,242 4,817 4,480 5,142 Des Moines 1,364 1,949 3,533 4,489 3,032 2,395 Seattle 5,753 5,797 7,066 7,974 6,756 6,377 Portland 2,476 2,904 3,761 3,099 3,922 3,613 Los Angeles 3,357 6,559 9,910 12,839 10,660 11,290 San Francisco 1,814 3,847 7,261 7,738 7,953 8,069 Salt Lake City 659 658 768 868 919 1,086 ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/411 "2009-04-08T15:30:11Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You’re taking that very much out of context. it also provides a chart which shows that alcohol related arrests increased from 1920 to 1925. I take that as strong evidence that alcohol consumption increased. I think it would be a gross misapplication of statistical reasoning to infer from increases in arrests for public intoxication, following the criminalization of almost _all_ alcohol and a stepped-up enforcement regime, that alcohol consumption had necessarily increased. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/412 "2009-04-08T15:43:47Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > And **Mr. Krebbs** - those “pigs”? Is this an ironic use of the word, or do you mean to disparage the police officers who were killed over the weekend here in Pittsburgh? I’ll freely admit that I am lightly prejudiced towards cops, but if I call the one that patrols the street in front of my apartment - who I don’t know personally - a pig, I don’t see why the dead ones should get a pass. I don’t necessarily mean to disparage any specific LEO as much as I mean to disparage the occupation when I use the term. Police are trained to lie and manipulate as a course of their daily duties. I don’t consider anyone who signs up to be a trained liar the least bit honorable, even if he does manage to save a couple lives here and there. ---
**Author:** ![Paleface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Paleface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paleface)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/413 "2009-04-08T16:19:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The right to a gun is an odd thing in our Constitution. It is the only right to a “thing” that is in there. You don’t understand the premise of the Constitution, and you’re not alone. There are many who also fail to grasp the Constitution of the United States. The 2nd Amendment does not grant the right, the Amendment prohibits the government from infringing upon that right. Same for the 1st Amendment. The Amendment does not grant you the right to freedom of speech, the Amendment prohibits the gov from infringing upon that right. The great and unique thing about America is that it was founded under the premise of individual freedom and liberty. If you examine the Bill of Rights, it’s easy to see that they are not rights that are benevolently granted by the government. Each of the Amendments are restrictions placed on the government. The rights that the Bill of Rights protect, are rights considered natural rights held by free individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/414 "2009-04-08T16:28:58Z")
> [@Paleface](#): > > You don’t understand the premise of the Constitution, and you’re not alone. There are many who also fail to grasp the Constitution of the United States. > > The 2nd Amendment does not grant the right, the Amendment prohibits the government from infringing upon that right. > > Same for the 1st Amendment. The Amendment does not grant you the right to freedom of speech, the Amendment prohibits the gov from infringing upon that right. > > The great and unique thing about America is that it was founded under the premise of individual freedom and liberty. If you examine the Bill of Rights, it’s easy to see that they are not rights that are benevolently granted by the government. Each of the Amendments are restrictions placed on the government. The rights that the Bill of Rights protect, are rights considered natural rights held by free individuals. This is a distinction without a difference. The freedoms exist because the government lets you have them. It’s silly to cite a state definition of rights to support an argument that the state does not grant rights. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/415 "2009-04-08T16:33:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a distinction without a difference. The freedoms exist because the government lets you have them. It’s silly to cite a state definition of rights to support an argument that the state does not grant rights. And the government exists because the people let it, so chill out. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/416 "2009-04-08T17:07:34Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You’re taking that very much out of context. it also provides a chart which shows that alcohol related arrests increased from 1920 to 1925. I take that as strong evidence that alcohol consumption increased. I note that an epidemic of alcohol abuse among children is a pretty good indication the whole thing backfired very badly. He cites plenty of other facts which support my position as well. Now, if you want to continue arguing about this, please start another thread. > > \*Arrests for drunkenness in some of the leading cities of the United States, 1920 to 1925: \* > > Boston > 21,800 > 30,987 > 37,543 > 38,988 > 39,528 > 37,944 > > Providence > 2,567 > 3,778 > 4,830 > 5,127 > 4,819 > 4,197 > > New York > 5,936 > 6,237 > 8,578 > 10,643 > 13,988 > 12,917 > > Buffalo > 7,421 > 8,347 > 8,868 > 12,181 > 11,135 > 16,174 > > Newark > 1,310 > 1,252 > 1,198 > 2,541 > 3,477 > 2,615 > > Philadelphia > 14,313 > 21.850 > 26,299 > 45,226 > 55,766 > 58,617 > > Pittsburgh > 9,577 > 10,371 > 16,554 > 24,651 > 25,401 > 28,568 > > Wilmington, Del. > 295 > 498 > 577 > 707 > 1,003 > 1,011 > > Baltimore > 1,785 > 3,258 > 4,955 > 6,235 > 6,029 > 5,887 > > Washington > 5,415 > 6,375 > 8,368 > 8,128 > 10,854 > 11,168 > > Richmond > 1,563 > 1,953 > 2,752 > 2,959 > 2,826 > 2,596 > > Wilmington, N.C. > 145 > 191 > 179 > 223 > 303 > 220 > > Charleston, S.C. > 508 > 512 > 564 > 582 > 732 > 775 > > Jacksonville > 811 > 995 > 1,543 > 2,348 > 2,251 > 2,900 > > Atlanta > 4,199 > 4,491 > 6,553 > 7,003 > 7,972 > 7,557 > > Birmingham > 927 > 1,117 > 2,000 > 3,652 > 3,972 > 4,962 > > Vicksburg > 42 > 63 > 106 > 137 > 105 > 321 > > New Orleans > 2,399 > 7,079 > 12,511 > 10,173 > 12,788 > 14,171 > > Galveston > 241 > 694 > 905 > 1,108 > 1,391 > 1,259 > > Little Rock > 511 > 853 > 819 > 644 > 771 > 695 > > St. Louis > 1,861 > 993 > 1,930 > 2,376 > 2,551 > 5,092 > > Louisville > 1,016 > 2,495 > 2,018 > 3,812 > 4,748 > 5,229 > > ## Knoxville > > * * * > > ## 2,753 > > 4,456 > 3,862 > > Cleveland > 2,991 > 5,156 > 16,817 > 18,814 > 19,271 > 23,393 > > Cincinnati > 395 > 603 > 712 > 1,118 > 1,895 > 2.279 > > Chicago > 32,362 > 49,762 > 64,853 > 75,900 > 86 072 > 92,888 > > Detroit > 6,599 > 7,220 > 10,098 > 11,947 > 13,717 > 15,124 > > Minneapolis > 2,363 > 5,243 > 7,268 > 7,289 > 7,676 > 7,435 > > ## Milwaukee 516 754 2,514 3,789 > > 6,056 > > Omaha > 2,640 > 3,821 > 5,242 > 4,817 > 4,480 > 5,142 > > Des Moines > 1,364 > 1,949 > 3,533 > 4,489 > 3,032 > 2,395 > > Seattle > 5,753 > 5,797 > 7,066 > 7,974 > 6,756 > 6,377 > > Portland > 2,476 > 2,904 > 3,761 > 3,099 > 3,922 > 3,613 > > Los Angeles > 3,357 > 6,559 > 9,910 > 12,839 > 10,660 > 11,290 > > San Francisco > 1,814 > 3,847 > 7,261 > 7,738 > 7,953 > 8,069 > > Salt Lake City > 659 > 658 > 768 > 868 > 919 > 1,086 It just says enforcement has gone up. There is a lot of money in it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/417 "2009-04-08T17:21:31Z")
Here’s a story about the increase in gun and ammunition sales since Obama was elected, from NPR and the Washington Post, via [Daily Kos](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/8/717752/-One-Part-Fearmongering,-Two-Parts-Cowards). > [@](#): > > DURY: They’re buying more guns, and then with the purchases of the guns the ammunition goes right along with that. It’s not just an ammunition shortage, it’s a gun and ammunition shortage. Just that… the sheer volume of it, right after the election, everyone was scared that they was going to take this ammo, or that he was going to tax it out of sight on the prices, so people started stocking up, buying half a lifetime to a lifetime supply of ammo, all at one time. > > NPR: A lifetime supply? > > DURY: Mm Hmm. I had a 69 year old woman the other day call me and say I’m going to give you my credit card for a case of ammunition for my AK-47. She said, I’ll be damned if I’m gonna have anybody tell me I can’t have any ammo. > [@](#): > > Where could these people possibly have gotten an idea that President Obama would lead a charge to drastically raise taxes on ammunition? I just wonder. > > The NRA video shows a Virginia hunter and Iraq war veteran, Karl Rusch, complaining about the high cost of gasoline and accusing Obama of planning a “huge new tax” on “guns and ammo.” > > “Where is this guy from?” Rusch asks. “He’s probably never been hunting a day in his life.” > > … > > The NRA video also accuses Obama of voting “to ban virtually all deer-hunting ammunition” and supporting “a ban on shotguns and rifles most of us use for hunting.” This guy here in Pittsburgh seems to have worked himself up over time in response to fearmongering like this, which apparently the NRA is directly involved in. Now, he was also coming from a Stormfront/ZOG craziness background, so he didn’t need as much working up. I’m just growing more and more concerned about the whipping up of insanity we’re hearing (Chuck Norris - we surround them - Michelle Bachman - Glenn Beck - revolution - the Tea Baggers) that this guy in Pittsburgh may be the tip of the iceberg. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/418 "2009-04-08T17:22:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a distinction without a difference. The freedoms exist because the government lets you have them. It’s silly to cite a state definition of rights to support an argument that the state does not grant rights. Obviously if a dictatorship abrogated all personal freedoms and enforced itself with a police state, then the citizens would not be free. The point is that the founders of the US started by saying that it was “self-evident” that certain things are inherent in the nature of humanity. That it was self-evident that people **ought** to be free. And that if a government denied this, or insisted that it was “necessary” to abrogate this, then that government was a tyranny, more interested in it’s own self-perpetuation (and the power of the people who ran it) than what was good for the people. Now this gets into the whole natural rights deal which is a 500-post debate in itself, and in previous threads you’ve established that your worldview is essentially Hobbesian so I don’t expect you to agree with this. Let’s just say a lot of people back in the 18th century disagreed with Hobbes, and a lot of people on this board do as well. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/419 "2009-04-08T17:33:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It just says enforcement has gone up. There is a lot of money in it. Are there no limits to your asshole-ry? Clip the quote, fecal monkey. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/420 "2009-04-08T17:51:46Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > SKS’s are not AK replicas. SKS’s are an entirely different firearm, and in their stock-state, they do not accept external magazines – at all. They, in fact, have 5 (10?) round internal magazines, which are reloaded from stripper clips. > > There are, however, AK-clone Civilian Legal guns, which are AK in design. > > Define “Gun-show Loophole,” please. > > It probably doesn’t mean what you think it means. > > Nearly **all** rifle calibers are capable of penetrating those vests. > > Then you’re **wrong**. The AK isn’t a variant or clone of the SKS, and the SKS isn’t a variant or clone of the AK. > > The AK is a Kalashnikov design, selective fire (in its original form), Assault Rifle (not _assault Weapon_, this term is arbitrary and made up) designed in 1947. > > The SKS is a Samozaryadniy Karabin sistemi Simonova self loading Carbine, which was designed in 1944(-1946), and is not selective fire – in any form. First, I defined the loophole above, please read, and before you answer, know that I personally have purchased guns this way. Second, :rolleyes: YOU know that about the AK/SKS, I KNOW that about the AK/SKS, but folks like, say, Lissener or Tiger Tamer don’t know and nor do they care, all they may know is that the guns have a similar look and are used by bad guys all over. Like I said, we can’t try to address raw emotion with cold logic, we have to temper the emotion with logic and come at it from a new direction. People are willing and able to lie to themselves and deny fact for what they want to be true, it’s human nature and we need to learn how to operate within its’ boundaries. People believe a man came back to life after being dead for three days, people believe that a man built an ark and two two of every critter on a cruise 'round the world, it’s not so hard for people to lie to themselves about something that’s an actual danger to society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005.md?page=22)