# Price for gun rights is paid in PA. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005 "2009-04-04T22:55:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/641 "2009-04-13T04:57:46Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Then why are our gun laws important to you? Because they can still affect people overseas? US Arms Import/Export regulations, for example, make it damn near impossible for collectors in the US to export firearms from the US to collectors or shooters overseas, or to import guns from overseas to the US. For example, there’s not that many GI-issue Colt M1911A1 pistols here in Australia, but they’re pretty common (if pricey) in the US. There’s so much paperwork and hassle involved in exporting a firearm from the US that almost no-one will do it, and even if someone with an exporter’s licence (or the time an inclination to do the paperwork) could be found, the costs involved are astronomical. This is for guns _leaving_ the country, remember. Importing guns on an occasional basis is apparently at the “Just don’t bother” level, unless it’s a Pre-1898 antique, and even then it’s still a complicated nightmare, I’m told. Also, when your Government looks at passing silly laws like requiring ammunition to be individually serial numbered, that’s going to send prices here skyrocketing (most sporting ammunition being imported from the US). So yeah, your gun laws _do_ affect people overseas, believe it or not. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/642 "2009-04-13T05:14:54Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Also, when your Government looks at passing silly laws like requiring ammunition to be individually serial numbered, that’s going to send prices here skyrocketing (most sporting ammunition being imported from the US). So yeah, your gun laws _do_ affect people overseas, believe it or not. I heard somewhere that there was going to be another try at getting more guns from the civil population in AU. You might not have to worry about it much longer as the disarming trend in AU government circles seems to be ramping up again. I have no cite, just heard it a few places… ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/643 "2009-04-13T05:52:58Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > I heard somewhere that there was going to be another try at getting more guns from the civil population in AU. You might not have to worry about it much longer as the disarming trend in AU government circles seems to be ramping up again. I have no cite, just heard it a few places… I have it on VERY good authority (from a well-connected source whom I have no reason to doubt) that this is not the case, at least at a Federal level. Individual states are a different matter, but gun buybacks are expensive and have been proven not to achieve much. All bets are off if someone goes postal and shoots up a shopping mall or something like that, but otherwise the Commonwealth Government has no plans to further restrict legitimate firearms ownership in Australia. There’s actually been a relaxing of the arms laws in Victoria and NSW- you can now get a Permit to Acquire “on the spot” in Victoria (with a 24 hour “cooling off period” before you can get your gun) and NSW recently removed the mandatory 28 day waiting period for subsequent firearms (used to be they wouldn’t look at a Permit To Acquire application for 28 days after it was lodged, regardless of whether or not the licensee already had registered firearms; it used to take months for shooters to purchase additional guns.) Which meant if you were a Benchrest shooter and wanted to purchase a .204 Ruger for the upcoming Inter-Club championships, it could be 6-8 weeks before you received your permit, which might not arrive in time for the match, or give you enough time to get your rifle properly sighted in and tweaked for the competition. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/644 "2009-04-13T12:16:15Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > If I may field this question? > > I hate senseless death. > > Also, I have to travel to the US fairly regularly, so even though I’m not a resident, the laws in your country are of some importance to me. In your travels here, how many times have you had a gun pointed at you? How many times have you seen a gun pointed at anybdoy here IRL? If it is that dangerous, why do you continue to come here? Business? If you value money over your personal safety, then why don’t you work on your greed issues instead of carping about our laws? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/645 "2009-04-13T12:17:28Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Because they can still affect people overseas? > > US Arms Import/Export regulations, for example, make it damn near impossible for collectors in the US to export firearms from the US to collectors or shooters overseas, or to import guns from overseas to the US. > > For example, there’s not that many GI-issue Colt M1911A1 pistols here in Australia, but they’re pretty common (if pricey) in the US. There’s so much paperwork and hassle involved in exporting a firearm from the US that almost no-one will do it, and even if someone with an exporter’s licence (or the time an inclination to do the paperwork) could be found, the costs involved are astronomical. > > This is for guns _leaving_ the country, remember. Importing guns on an occasional basis is apparently at the “Just don’t bother” level, unless it’s a Pre-1898 antique, and even then it’s still a complicated nightmare, I’m told. > > Also, when your Government looks at passing silly laws like requiring ammunition to be individually serial numbered, that’s going to send prices here skyrocketing (most sporting ammunition being imported from the US). So yeah, your gun laws _do_ affect people overseas, believe it or not. The issue under discussion here really isn’t what you can or can’t have in your military relics collection. The discussion centers around guns as a possible danger to society. You knew that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/646 "2009-04-13T12:25:59Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The issue under discussion here really isn’t what you can or can’t have in your military relics collection. The discussion centers around guns as a possible danger to society. You knew that, too. You asked why someone outside the US would care what the US’s gun laws were. I gave you one possible reason. A Springfield M1903 is just as capable of killing someone as an AR-15, if not more so (longer range, more powerful cartridge). The US arms export laws don’t just apply to military relics, either- if a licenced shooter in Canada wanted to buy a Marlin 336 or a Remington Model 700 from someone in the US they’d have exactly the same problems. So, you have laws in the US that are actually designed to _prevent guns leaving the country_, or making the process so incredibly difficult for non-bulk commercial sales that almost no-one bothers. How is that a good thing? I can completely understand tough import laws for firearms. Tough export laws make considerably less sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/647 "2009-04-13T12:27:58Z")
I never said it was a good thing or a bad thing. I’m saying that it isn’t related to the core of what we are discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/648 "2009-04-13T12:31:50Z")
Fair enough; but after nearly 650 posts I think the discussion has come back around to meet itself, FWIW… ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/649 "2009-04-13T12:41:26Z")
FTR, I think our import/export regulations on individual firearms are a study in idiocy. Part of the reason for that is that our President can issue executive orders to the BATFE that, in effect, are The Law. That idiot Jimmy Carter, for example, issued an absolutely goofy order regarding international sales of suppressors. He wanted to cut down on assassinations, you see. :rolleyes: If it were up to me, **ME** , you’d be able to buy and shoot whatever you wanted. The only rule would be that you couldn’t harm others. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/650 "2009-04-13T12:50:41Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > FTR, I think our import/export regulations on individual firearms are a study in idiocy. Part of the reason for that is that our President can issue executive orders to the BATFE that, in effect, are The Law. That idiot Jimmy Carter, for example, issued an absolutely goofy order regarding international sales of suppressors. He wanted to cut down on assassinations, you see. :rolleyes: We’ve got similar laws here- silencers are _verboten_ because of that very reason. Never mind that most (nearly all) shooters are using them to shoot bunnies and foxes, and- just as importantly- they’re completely legal in NZ and many European countries, and neither of those places have problems with people using them for nefarious purposes. You and I both know that silencers buggerise the accuracy of a firearm and that they’re useless without subsonic ammo, further reducing their effectiveness. They’re great for .22 rifles and pistols, and 9mm and .45 handguns, and that’s about it. > [@](#): > > If it were up to me, **ME** , you’d be able to buy and shoot whatever you wanted. The only rule would be that you couldn’t harm others. IMHO that’s how it should be- and how it used to be, back in the 19th century and period just up until after WWI. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/651 "2009-04-14T01:01:30Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > In your travels here, how many times have you had a gun pointed at you? None. > [@](#): > > How many times have you seen a gun pointed at anybdoy here IRL? Zero times. But if I based all my risk assesments on my own personal experiences and nothing more, I’d be pretty stupid right? > [@](#): > > If it is that dangerous, why do you continue to come here? Business? If you value money over your personal safety, then why don’t you work on your greed issues instead of carping about our laws? It’s not _that_ dangerous. But you agree I have a stake in the issue, or not? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/652 "2009-04-14T01:34:23Z")
No, I do not. Your reason for coming here is purely voluntary and money-based. It would make more sense for you to stay home than for us to undertake a sweeping and fundamental change so you feel safer…though you admit to never having been endangered. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/653 "2009-04-14T11:58:03Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > No, I do not. Your reason for coming here is purely voluntary and money-based. It would make more sense for you to stay home than for us to undertake a sweeping and fundamental change so you feel safer…though you admit to never having been endangered. Well, minor quibble. I don’t go voluntarily. I have to go for work. I don’t enjoy business travel, as it’s usually stressful and means 16-hour days. You say I could quit? I don’t think we have to go down that road do we? I like my job, generally speaking. And, really, my travel there was only a minor point, the main one being unnecessary deaths and my anti position thereto. Also, I don’t think I made any suggestions for sweeping changes (or any changes for that matter). But I can understand how you feel I might be advocating that at some point, simply because I see a problem. That I haven’t suggested any changes is more because I don’t understand nearly enough about anything to even suggest a change. It’s not even my place to suggest changes - as you say, I’m not a citizen or even a resident. But I still see a problem, and will discuss it on the net from time to time. I learned a lot so far in this thread alone. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/654 "2009-04-14T12:16:03Z")
I haven’t been following this thread closely but I thought of it when I read [this](http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20090413/NEWS/904130354) article. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/655 "2009-04-14T14:58:45Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Well, minor quibble. I don’t go voluntarily. I have to go for work. I don’t enjoy business travel, as it’s usually stressful and means 16-hour days. You say I could quit? I don’t think we have to go down that road do we? I like my job, generally speaking. And, really, my travel there was only a minor point, the main one being unnecessary deaths and my anti position thereto. > > Also, I don’t think I made any suggestions for sweeping changes (or any changes for that matter). But I can understand how you feel I might be advocating that at some point, simply because I see a problem. That I haven’t suggested any changes is more because I don’t understand nearly enough about anything to even suggest a change. It’s not even my place to suggest changes - as you say, I’m not a citizen or even a resident. But I still see a problem, and will discuss it on the net from time to time. I learned a lot so far in this thread alone. You fail to show how banning firearms would lower crime rates. In fact, since the outright ban on pistols, the UK has seen a rise in overall crime (and firearm related crimes), while the USA has seen a drop. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/656 "2009-04-14T15:44:33Z")
Would that also be a cite from the source you referenced earlier in the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/657 "2009-04-14T18:05:06Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Would that also be a cite from the source you referenced earlier in the thread? No, why would something from the NiJ reference British Crime Statistics? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/658 "2009-04-14T19:00:30Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > No, why would something from the NiJ reference British Crime Statistics? I meant the British Journal of Crimonology report you referred to earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/659 "2009-04-14T19:47:09Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I meant the British Journal of Crimonology report you referred to earlier. Oh, no. BBC has covered this a couple of dozen times. [One](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm) of many articles on the subject. Edit: And I still haven’t been able to find that report. I looked online, but no luck. I guess I’ll just have to hang my hat on the repeat offenders static, as it comes to that particular point. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/660 "2009-04-15T01:01:36Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > You fail to show how banning firearms would lower crime rates. > > In fact, since the outright ban on pistols, the UK has seen a rise in overall crime (and firearm related crimes), while the USA has seen a drop. You fail to have read or comprehended anything I said. (or is that just boilerplate you post in response to anything?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005.md?page=34)