# Price for gun rights is paid in PA. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005 "2009-04-04T22:55:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/81 "2009-04-05T15:07:12Z")
The NRA does not bear responsibility for what happened, but the reason this is true is because killing the police is not a reasonable response to the police coming to unconstitutionally take away all your guns. If I thought that was a reasonable response, I probably would blame the NRA. There is a simple way of determining when [lying](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html) to people makes you responsible for their actions taken in response to your lies. If they take actions that would be reasonable if your lies were true, then you bear some responsibility for their actions. Supposing I tell **Argent Towers** that the police are secret nazis and they are coming to exterminate his family, if he then kills some local police in a no-knock drug raid, I bear some responsibility. I suppose another line we could draw would be foreseeability. If it were foreseeable that Argent Towers would do this, would I bear any responsibility? I’d be curious to hear what people think about foreseeability as a useful line there. In answer to **Rand Rover** , I think what is being assigned is moral responsibility (which we know you don’t believe in). ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/82 "2009-04-05T15:27:51Z")
[QUOTE=Ex Tank] > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Please permit me the honor of oratorical seppuku. Feel free to try the real thing. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Revised Forum Rules] Do not threaten harm or wish death on another poster Do not threaten another poster with physical harm, or wish for their demise. This includes hypothetical statements like “it would make me happy if someone ran you over” or “I hope you say that to [someone prone to stabbing people] and they stab you”. [/QUOTE] [Revised Forum Rules for the BBQ Pit: read this before posting - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507985) Wishing death on another poster is against the rules. Please avoid it in the future. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/83 "2009-04-05T15:33:35Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > \I put it to you that the following represents the uses of the private possession of guns (from most common use to least common use): > > 1. Feeling better about the size of your dick\ Wasn’t it agreed on this board that invoking the claim that guns are a sexual fetish is the gun thread equivalent of Godwin’s Law? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/84 "2009-04-05T15:35:28Z")
People … please. This isn’t the fault of the NRA or gun-nuts. It’s obvious that violent video games are to blame. Let’s get our priorities straight. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/85 "2009-04-05T15:57:24Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > The police are agents of us, the public Yes, and as long as we have more firepower than them, they will remain so. > [@](#): > > MAD is not a viable strategy. Unilateral disarmament constitutes suicide. There, are we done with the stupid strawmen yet? I want a pony! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/86 "2009-04-05T16:13:28Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I haven’t seen a peep from any anti-gun person on here that they bear responsibility for every person victimized, assaulted, or murdered because they were denied having a firearm to defend themselves. Because it never happens. They were victimized because the killer DID have a gun, not because the victims did NOT. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/87 "2009-04-05T16:14:03Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Yes, and as long as we have more firepower than them, they will remain so. That’s completely stupid. It isn’t the balance of power that makes them agents of the public. It is a system of laws. Why the fuck would anyone think otherwise? Insanity? > [@](#): > > Unilateral disarmament constitutes suicide. There, are we done with the stupid strawmen yet? > I want a pony! This last part is gibberish. I can only guess that you are engaging in some kind of too clever by half ironic woosh attempt. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/88 "2009-04-05T16:21:19Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Spurious logic. Obviously, if Joe Blow and John Doe are both contemplating murder, and Joe lives in a society where murderers are efficiently punished and John lives in a society where they have a significant chance of getting away with it, John is more likely to actually kill. Ergo, features of the legal system that make acquittal more likely (whether they are simple inefficiencies or principled protections of the rights of the accused) do, in fact, result in more killings. Our justice system does not allow a significant chance of getting away with murder, NO society can guarantee efficient punishment, and NOBODY take this kind of thing into consideration when they decide to go on shooting sprees. This is evidenced by the fact that most of them kill themselves last. These shooting sprees are elaborate suicides. They never intend for there to be a trial, nor would they have any chance of acquittal if they did have a trial. The anaology is inapt and desperate. Access to guns facilitates murder. The existence of due process has never once been the reason anyone committed murder. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/89 "2009-04-05T16:25:05Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Wasn’t it agreed on this board that invoking the claim that guns are a sexual fetish is the gun thread equivalent of Godwin’s Law? It wasn’t agreed to by me. I sincerely believe it _is_ a sexual fetish for many people. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/90 "2009-04-05T16:32:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It wasn’t agreed to by me. I sincerely believe it _is_ a sexual fetish for many people. In which case, people who want to ban guns are displacing a castration complex. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/91 "2009-04-05T16:35:40Z")
I don’t want to ban guns. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/92 "2009-04-05T17:02:21Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > That’s completely stupid. It isn’t the balance of power that makes them agents of the public. It is a system of laws. Is it the power of Jesus that compels everyone to obey these laws? You made a funny! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/93 "2009-04-05T17:06:39Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > I want a pony! I bought one for you, but on the way home I thought it might break its leg one day, so to save time I shot it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/94 "2009-04-05T17:22:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > so to save time I shot it. Bastard! :mad: I hope you at least made swiss sausage from the meat. There’s some good eatin on _that_ stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/95 "2009-04-05T17:49:54Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Kimmy\_Gibbler: > > Even if it were a fact that high gun ownership rate = high crime rate (which is disputable), I would \*still \*be against banning guns. I would rather have the crime rate stay \*exactly \*where it is than give up my right to keep and bear arms. > > In other words, given a choice between: > > 1. High crime rate & keeping my guns. > 2. Low crime rate and giving up my guns. > > I would choose #1. That’s kinda fucked up. You do realize that the crime rate is just basically a condensed statistical summary of actual people who are robbed, raped, beaten, murdered, etc. And you’d rather see more people be victims of violent crime as long as you get to keep your guns (and theoretically) keep yourself safe. Really? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/96 "2009-04-05T18:23:06Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > That’s kinda fucked up. You do realize that the crime rate is just basically a condensed statistical summary of actual people who are robbed, raped, beaten, murdered, etc. And you’d rather see more people be victims of violent crime as long as you get to keep your guns (and theoretically) keep yourself safe. Really? Substitute freedom of speech or being allowed to get married or whatever for gun rights and you won’t think it’s fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/97 "2009-04-05T18:29:36Z")
I’d give up the right to get married for a significantly lower crime rate. Of course, I’d give that up for a cheese sammich, but still. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/98 "2009-04-05T18:32:28Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > The thread title should be PAID… not AID. sorry. > > You two should read my post a second time. I did not blame the NRA. I only said they should call the family members and thank them for having those officers pay the ultimate price for gun rights. And maybe throw in a free dinner. > > Am I suppose to use the words “fuck” or “fucking” to make the point clearer? Is that a rule here? > > In fact, I would love it if the NRA would open up a Second Amendment Hall of Fame and put folks like the three slain Pittsburtgh officer in there along with other people who died paying the ultimate price for gun rights. It could beome quite the tourist attraction. You know, you are really a jackass. Just because a nut shoots 3 cops has nothing to do with their being NRA, it has everything to do with their mental condition. If it had been just a random person who got a gun somewhere, where would your recreational outrage post be … you couldnt rant about the NRA then now, could you … ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/99 "2009-04-05T18:44:12Z")
> [@SuntanTigerTamer](#): > > Does Charlton Heston’s cold dead hand have to actually pull the trigger before the NRA is held even a little, teensy bit accountable? If Charlton Heston’s cold, dead finger pulled the trigger on a gun and killed someone, I’d blame him, not the NRA. Then again, I’m not a dumbshit. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/100 "2009-04-05T19:10:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Because it never happens. They were victimized because the killer DID have a gun, not because the victims did NOT. So if I get stabbed to death and wasn’t able to have a gun to defend myself, the “gun culture” is free and clear but the people who want to take my guns are fine too? Seriously, this “OMG Obama’s gonna take our guns!” crap is ridiculous, but so is you telling me that I keep a shotgun under my bed because it makes my dick bigger. I keep a shotgun under my bed because if somebody breaks into my house they’re going to be bigger and meaner than me, but I’m going to shoot them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005.md?page=6)